The CX Leader Podcast: "From B2C to B2B": Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

The CX Leader Podcast: "From B2C to B2B": this wav audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Steve:
It's no surprise that CX for B2C companies has differences from B2B experiences. So what's it like for a CX pro to move from one to the other?

Stuart:
Everyone can imagine their experience with a car rental company or a restaurant or an airline. It's much harder for people to put themselves in the shoes of a HR buyer, for example, somebody who's really interested in their payroll system. And, you know, it's a very unique situation to be in and it's very hard to empathize with it.

Steve:
A conversation on the differences between B2B and B2C customer experience, on this episode of The CX Leader Podcast.

Announcer:
The CX Leader Podcast with Steve Walker is produced by Walker, an experience management firm that helps our clients accelerate their success. You can find out more at walkerinfo.com.

Steve:
Hello, everyone. I'm Steve Walker, host of The CX Leader Podcast and thank you for listening. It's never been a better a time to be a CX leader and this podcast explores the topics and themes to help leaders like you deliver amazing experiences for your customers. We don't do this very often, but on this episode I'm going to have a more open ended conversation on a topic that's one of my favorites, and we discuss it often: the differences between B2B and B2C. But we have an interesting spin on this particular conversation. What it's like for a CX pro to transition from B2C to B2B or vice versa. My guest has been on the podcast before. Stuart Gilchriest is director of CX strategy at UKG, a technology company providing solutions for HR, payroll and workforce management technology. Stuart, welcome back to The CX Leader Podcast.

Stuart:
Thanks, Steve. Thanks for having me on. Glad to be back.

Steve:
So yeah, just for context, you have been a guest on the podcast in the past. So grateful that you're willing to come back, but just give our listeners just a little bit of context and your background and then maybe a little bit more about UKG. I know UKG because I see them big time sponsorship of golfers and then they also UKG has a very strong presence in my home market here in central Indiana. At any rate, just give us a little bit of your background, a little more on UKG. Just set the table for us.

Stuart:
Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Yes. So really, I got into CX, like a lot of people did by by accident. After university back in the UK, I took a job in hospitality and a management training program and that was really the spark for my love of customer service and customer experience. But it was only when I came to the US did my MBA and then transitioned into some roles here in the hospitality and travel space that I really got into a full time CX role. And most recently I was at Hertz, the car rental company. I think from our last conversation, that was a time when we were going through the pandemic. It was Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Really interesting and challenging time to be in that industry in particular. But, you know, we did some great things. We got some great industry recognition for our CX work and managed to position Hertz as the experience leader within that car rental industry. But then just over a year ago, I made the switch from my B2C background into a B2B role, as you mentioned. And for just over a year now, I've been at UKG with my friend and mentor Roxie Strohmenger, who has really just been a great kind of inspiration and was instrumental in getting me over here. So I think you mentioned this, but for those who don't know and don't receive perhaps their paycheck through through UKG, because that's one of the services we provide, we're a leading human capital management company or HCM in company lingo. We were formed out of the merger of two big companies in the space back in 2020, so that was Cronus Inc and then Ultimate Software, and that was combined then to become UKG. So our goal is really to help our customers create great workplaces through HR payroll and then workforce management solutions as well. So really interesting time to be joining such a big growing merged organization that's still finding its own feet. And yeah, as we mentioned, a really interesting personal challenge transitioning from from B2C and to a B2B tech SAS role.

Steve:
Well, thanks again. I'm glad you mentioned Roxie. I just actually saw a reference to her on LinkedIn this morning when I was scrolling through my stuff and she's been a guest on the podcast and I think actually we did a LinkedIn live with CXPA with Roxie too. So great to be able to reconnect and good for you the two have landed there at a great company at a great time here in the CX world. Well, I've got to tell you that this was more than half your idea to do it this way, Stuart. So this is going to be interesting because usually I've got kind of a standard list of questions and we kind of work through it and it sounds conversational, but it's a little more planned out than what we're going to do today. But I have faith that between the two of us, we're going to be able to deliver some good content. So why don't we just start just you said you've only been at it a year, but I'll throw out one topic and then we'll just see where it goes there. But I think most of the best work starts in the B2C side, and it's because people's individual experiences and what they're looking for are driven by their own experiences as consumers. How's that one hit you?

Stuart:
I mean, yeah, I think you're definitely right. I think it's a more natural role because as you say, everyone can imagine their experience with a car rental company or a restaurant or an airline. It's much harder for people to put themselves in the shoes of a a HR buyer, for example, somebody who's really interested in their payroll system. And, you know, it's a very unique situation to be in, and it's very hard to empathize with it. But I will say that makes the challenge that much bigger and that much more exciting, frankly, because it is a you know, it's a more complex world. You need more listening points. The journey is just not a straight line, right? People go through all these different phases and they they switch back and forth. It's not linear. And, you know, when you look at some of the challenges that every professional comes across, such as siloed organizations and getting people to work together with the end goal of delighting the customer, that's even harder in a B2B company because, you know, you've got customers flipping between different journey phases all the time and it's a very long interaction that often hopefully gets renewed and goes on for a long time. That relationship lasts a while, so it kind of ten-X's the challenges that you face in a B2C organization when you're working at it in that way. And I'd love to hear Steve from you, like any tips that you've got or things that you've seen people do well when it comes to navigating those complex B2B journeys.

Steve:
Well, hey, you've already given me about three or four bullet points just in your opening statement here that I think we can we can talk about, because you've already hit on several of the things that and I love the concept of Ten X, I think it is a Ten X deal. But, you know, you mentioned like HR leader picking a software, you know, they can relate to taking a trip to go to an HR conference or to go to recruit some, some new talent. And they fly on an airplane and they rent a car and they check into a hotel. And so their experience, when they log on to the website to explore a new software or when they log into their new software, those experiences are informed by those same things. You know, we did a study back in 2013. We called it Customers 2020, kind of like what… what was the future going to be like? And in 2013, you could purchase on Amazon, you could order an Uber. And I think that you could also download a Netflix. But at the same time, you if you had a B2B delivery, you had no app to see where your delivery was. And for me, that was a perfect example of where B2B naturally has sort of been lagging. And I think that's been the kind of the the mission for us is B2B, is to try to keep up with sort of the pace that's going on in the B2C. But as you mentioned, you know, it's it's way more complicated and it's it's way more complex. I think one of the things you said is this sort of long interaction and this is, I think, a definition. So I'll just throw this back to you here. But, you know, I think we think of B2B and B2C is like polar opposites.

Steve:
But I would argue it's more of a spectrum. You go all the way from the really transactional things, like the probably the most transactional is when you just buy a consumer product in a, in a grocery store or a retail establishment and you take it home and you use it until it's gone and you throw it away and then you go buy another one. There's some brand loyalty there, but the experience is not you know, it's not a huge part of it. But then you go to the software company where you might maybe make making a six, if not seven figure investment. It's something that the organization is going to live with for probably, you know, three years, if not a decade. Tons of people and process involved in that, going to impact all the functions in the organization. So you have sort of those at the two ends of the spectrum and we kind of think of B2C, B2B, but then there's some B2B things that get pretty transactional. You know, like a delivery is pretty transactional. So some of the touchpoints are transactional. And then on back to the B2C side, you know, there's things that we consume as consumers, but they're way more complex and more ongoing. For example, our our health care, you know, I mean, nothing is more important to an individual than their human health. And that is a very complex journey. So yeah, how's that for some complexity and B2B, B2C, and it may not be, you know, just one or the other. It's more of a spectrum, but I think that's another way to think about it.

Stuart:
Now, I love the idea of it being a spectrum, right? It's never as simple as I think. As humans, we love to put things in pigeonholes. It makes makes our lives easier to to to make some kind of heuristic shortcuts. But it's absolutely a spectrum. I think there's some really challenging B2C journeys that are not straightforward at all. And likewise there's some relatively straightforward B2B pieces as well. I think one of the one of the things that I've really kind of come across in this has just been the when we talk about complexity, I think it's a lot of the complexity and number of individuals involved that are customer. Right. So again, if I go back to my car rental days, generally it's one person buying, you know, renting a car. Of course, you have business travelers. They may have corporate accounts that tends to get a little bit more high bid. But generally, it's pretty easy to put that journey into a box and say, okay, it's got a beginning, middle and an end. But when you think about a B2B companies relationship with another business, the amount of people, the different types of roles, how you measure the overall sentiment and what weighting do you give to the decision maker who's ultimately going to make the decision? You know, they're going to sign the check or the, you know, the end user.

Stuart:
In our case, people who say receive their paychecks from UKG or are using our scheduling software, there's a lot to to to balance and then to read back to the organization and say, well, we're doing well in this area and not so well in that area can be a real challenge when you've got so many voices and opinions. And I think one of the things that every B2B company really struggles with that I hadn't really experienced much in the B2C space is how do you aggregate all of those individual experiences to try and give a reliable, accurate and actionable viewpoint of a company or a customer or a client? How do you how do you aggregate that up into something that makes sense and people can actually act on?

Steve:
Yeah, I think that's a you know, that's a topic that at Walker we've struggled with, not struggled with, but we've we've tried to improve on really over the last 25, 30 years. But you're right. Just to break it back down, you know, on a B2B purchase of technology, you probably have… You certainly have a financial buyer, you know, that's probably, you know, procurement or the, you know, the finance function. You almost always have a technical buyer. You know, somebody that's looking at the processes, the product that what is it going to solve the problem. But then you have a whole lot of other influencers and things and there's actually some pretty neat work out there on sort of how a B2B decision making organism works. One of my friends uses like this analogy of the native Alaskans and how they would look for whales, whale hunters, if you think about it, because you only go out once in a while to to buy something like this, but you probably need to make some sort of assumption. And this needs to be done collaboratively with your account teams and with your product developers and with the people that are going to actually install the installation for the client and try to create kind of what is that ecosystem at that individual client and try to collect that input from from all of those and then, you know, aggregate it if they all four or five of them are able to complete the survey and they're all truly loyal, then it's not that big of a problem.

Steve:
The problem becomes if there's differences in there, and we see that all the time. But I think the point is that I think it's worthwhile for B2B… complex B2B organizations to try to fashion some sort of aggregated score because they need to link that back to the results. But then really for actioning you break it back down to the individual and you have to have the follow up, not just with a single point of contact, but perhaps with multiple points of contact. And this can go really I mean, I've actually seen some of our B2B customers that get in the hundreds, if not thousands of responses from a customer, individuals within one single customer. Think about a technology company that, say, is servicing Citibank globally. You know how many people in that bank might be using the technology?

Stuart:
So you're absolutely right. And they've got they've all got these different preferences for how they're going to interact with you or how they'd like to interact with you. And I think one of the things that I'm seeing is really that every company will do its segmentation, whether it's B2C, B2B, they'll say, these are our customers, this is what we're aiming for. But unless you drill down in a B2B roll in into that behavioral segmentation to say, how do people interact with us? What are the key signs to say they're going to prefer this type of a flow versus that type of a flow and really then getting into providing a personalized experience that that's proactive and anticipating their needs but is also scalable. Right. You think you talk about thousands of people within one one customer. You can't have a completely personalized experience for everybody. So I think one of the keys is really trying to understand what are the triggers or the signs within our data to say this person has this behavioral profile and is likely to want us to interact with them or to provide for them in a certain way. I see that as being a lot more influential, perhaps in in the B2B space. It's not to say it's not important as B2C is relevant everywhere. But how else do you break down these these hundreds or thousands of data points that you have for one customer and still provide something that feels personalized to the end user, given that they're all in such different situations?

Steve:
We're all pros, right? So, you know, it's important we hear from you about what topics you think would be most helpful. Let us know how we're doing by going to cxleaderpodcast.com/feedback and complete a short survey. You'll even have a chance to score some free CX Leader Podcast swag. That's cxleaderpodcast.com/feedback.

Steve:
Hey. My guest on the podcast this week is Stuart Gilchriest, director CX Strategy at UKG, a technology company providing solutions for HR, payroll and workforce management technology. Stuart actually threw me a little curve ball on this, and he's kind of challenged me to match wits on the difference between B2C and B2B, and it's really been a lot of fun. You know, I'm going to go back to one of your opening comments that I jotted down is that that it's not a single journey map, right? It's not a single journey that we're talking about. It's a complex layer of multiple journeys. Some customers who might go through only one or two of those journeys and others who go through every single one of them. I just did a podcast a couple of weeks ago where I recalled a discussion I had with one of my friendly competitors in the space who really was badmouthing journey mapping. And really what it came down to is that that their perspective was more on the B2C side and, you know, it's just B2B, unless you really start to break it down and say, what would the ideal experience look like in this really complex system, then you can't really try to measure to that or you can't really metric to that. It's again, it's one thing for a relatively simple consumer experience that's very transactional, that is a relatively simple journey map. But when you're talking about buying a technology that you're going to live with, that you're going to customize, that's going to need to change as time goes on. There could be 15 to 20 different journeys that a customer could go through during the life of that, that relationship. So you're kind of new to this on the B2B side, but that's something you've already picked up in in the first year.

Stuart:
Yeah. I mean, not to say that that journey mapping wasn't important in a B2C role. I think it's a great communication tool and it's a great way to bring people in to some of the work that you're doing and B2C, of course, it can tend to be a little bit more of a well, let's build a process map or layer in some emotions. It's fairly intuitive, but, you know, great thing to do in new hires. For example, here's our here's our journey map because it's simple and everyone can interact and understand it pretty easily. But yeah, in that, in that B2B space, that additional level of complexity, the fact that within each silo, people will see the interactions they have with each customer and then through human nature, they will expand that and say, well, every customer acts the same way. Or the experience that we have in our particular silo is how we do it across the organization. And of course, they're not seeing these hundreds of touchpoints that a customer has with the organization. And if a team isn't there to do that role and to really align people and tie everything together, it can feel like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. It can feel like a really disjointed experience and frankly, without a centralized CX team to be able to shine a light on what that feels like and what that looks like through journey mapping and other other methods, it can kind of go unnoticed. Everyone assumes that their world is the entire world right? There slice of the pie is the entire pie. And it's just it's just not the case. And I think that's that's some of the biggest value that in B2B CX even more so than in B2C, that we can really add value to the organization by helping to shine a light on those challenges that customers have across different journeys.

Steve:
Yeah, you made a great point about journey mapping that I should have made, but yeah, there's a great value in the process of getting everybody to go through a shared experience because that kind of contributes to the buy in. And it's also very enlightening to see how other parts of the organization interact that might not occur. You also early on mentioned silos, but that's kind of part of the process of how you break them down. And then as I was listening to you, I was thinking about now how do we take some of our after journey mapping as we start to collect some metrics, how do we bring some of those things, some of those metrics back to the silos, but then help them understand how it operates within the journey? I'll just throw this example out. I've used it for probably 20 years because it's such a great one. But I recall we we got some initial response back that the field service of a, of a B2B company, they were out fixing equipment that their customers used in the field and they they got sort of poor scores in their first initial customer result. And yet the internal metrics said that their service in the field was just awesome, like 90%. And I remember this dialog and this went on for several weeks and really trying to figure it out. But what ultimately occurred is that if they didn't have the part on the truck, it didn't count. So but when we entered the customer's perspective, they didn't care it was parts or service, you know, it just the guy came out and his machine wasn't fixed. So you know that that's a really simple example. But I think that's the role of. A CX pro in a B2B complex, B2B is to get people to collaborate, to put the data out there and say, why is this disconnect happening? Why do our internal metrics say this or our financial results say this, and yet our customers are experiencing this?

Stuart:
Well, and the beauty of that as well, is it the secondary benefit is it also helps people understand what their role is in delivering a great experience and how that ties together with everything else that you're trying to deliver. You now if you're a server, a waiter in a restaurant, you know the impact you have on each customer because you're doing it every day. You know, if you are writing software, if you're coding in the background, you're a million miles potentially away from some of the customer feedback that might be received about your product. Unless someone's shining a light on the impact that you have on the customer, good and bad, depending on how you do your role. It's not just about, well, my code is right, therefore it works. It's also about actually is it is it providing is it solving a real issue for customers? Is it providing value to them? And is it doing it in a way that makes them happy, delighted and wanting to stay with UKG? That's not something that's immediately obvious when you're looking at I don't want to boil it down too much, but ones and zeros on a screen, right? It isn't always obvious. And I think that journey mapping and experience design and a lot of the other techniques we have at our disposal can really shine a light on the role that everybody plays in delivering a great experience.

Steve:
You just said another thing that I love. I love people that have worked in restaurants or in high touch retail situations as kind of their entry level into the the workforce because they learn a skill that they don't teach in business school. And that's how to take care of customers. I've tried to hire on the spot waiters or people like at the car dealer who really do a good job when the situation is not really good because they just get to be champs at dealing with a kind of an emotional moment. And that's something that a lot of people, you know, you can get an MBA and never have had to actually take care of a customer. And that's another, I think, really subtle thing about this customer experience and why it's so critical. Because if you are in the B2B space and you're trying to differentiate based on a customer experience, it's got to pervade the organization. It can't just be like the front line person. In fact, that maybe that's a topic we ought to go to right now. Stuart, is how essential in the B2B space the employee experience is related to the customer experience?

Stuart:
Oh, it's huge. It's absolutely huge. It's it's huge in every business. But again, as we've spoken about with so many moving parts within a B2B journey, if one part is broken or it's not pulling its weight, if one cog in that wheel isn't doing what it's supposed to, then the whole thing can grind to a halt pretty quickly. And again, it's not to say that employee experience isn't important in a B2C space. You know, you think of happy smiley people interacting in a face to face interaction. Of course that stuff matters. But again, the level of complexity that you get within B2B, the fact that that employees are often a little bit more removed from the end customer, the end user, the end experience is so, so crucial. And the one thing I will say, having having joined UKG, it's a fantastic experience for that. We do that really well internally. There's a huge focus on how can we get our employees to be even more engaged, even more motivated. There's some phenomenal people out there, there's some phenomenal managers and there's some phenomenal leaders. And we really are it's it's a very intentional approach that UKG has towards EX and employee engagement in general, because without that it can really be if it's left to its own devices, it can really be something that that decelerates or hampers your experience delivery the way that you want to drive change within an organization.

Stuart:
If you don't have people that buy in and get it and understand what what they're there to do for their customers and they're not really keen to excel and exceed over and above what customers are expecting, then then you fall down. It can be a real grind. And in the CX world, world it can be a real challenge if you're working with an employee base that just isn't engaged and doesn't have that additional motivation, it's it's much harder to get what you want to do done because you can't do it yourself, right? You have to work through others. You have to influence others, and you have to get employees inspired, engaged and motivated through your work. And that helps if you've got a really solid foundation of employee engagement and a great EX within your organization.

Steve:
Yeah, I want to just again listening to you kind of spark some thoughts in my head. But you know, going back to your previous role, like in the car rental experience, like I'll just take you through kind of how I would. I booked the reservation online, I got the app, I get my text that my car is in a certain spot. I go and I see my name on the preferred board. I walk right out. The contracts in there, the keys are in there. It's in the right spot. I pull out, I show my license and the contract to the guy, and I'm out of there. And then when I come back with it, I drop it. The guy comes over with his reader, make sure I filled it up with gas, gives me my receipt, I'm out of there. So the technology is really replaced a lot of the kind of human interaction there and it makes for a great experience. But then when you have a breakdown, then you want to be able to reach somebody. And I think particularly like in particularly now with labor shortages and then even COVID made it even harder to kind of interact with people. But that's where it's so much more complicated and B2B because, you know, the customer may want to self service for a little bit and depending on their tolerance they might even want to play around a little bit. But then at some point they need some help. You know, when the human element has to supplement the digital experience, that's where the rubber meets the road and B2B in my opinion.

Stuart:
I agree. Having that interaction between the digital and human resources and having that be a smooth, seamless transition, but also and it sounds really obvious, but also some of the basics of when people are reaching out for help and support, are we asking what they've tried already? Because there is there is a group of people who will want to self serve, they'll want to find the article. They'll be all over the Internet trying to find it and in community and forums and these other places where they can find answers. And frankly, there's other people who go, Oh, something's broken. Let me pick up the phone. And unless you're empathizing with customers, unless you're trying to understand where they're at in that interaction, it sounds so obvious, but we all jump into solution mode. Oh, I know what your problem is. Let me fix it. We all do that. It's a natural thing, and we all have to force ourselves sometimes to go. Let me ask a couple of clarifying questions here. What if you tried already? Did you go down this path? No. Okay. Well, okay, let me let me provide a solution to you, which is something you haven't already tried, because that's the worst when you're in an online chat, whether it's B2B, B2C or you call in and they spend the first 5 minutes of the call after you've explained the problem that you're having, running through all the things you already tried, rather than just asking, What have you tried already? It boggles my mind that that we don't have that customer first mindset, but it's because people are going in their mind, they're going through a checklist and they go, I know what the problem is. Let's do this. And it's not the right it's not a not an outside end approach. It's an inside out approach which is just just not the way to do it.

Steve:
Stuart, actually, kind of at that point now where I've got to get take home value, you know, I ask every guest to give us their take home value and that's kind of your best tip or trick here for our listeners. So you may not be the only person that's moved from a B2C to B2B roll. Or, you know, there might be somebody that's still trying to stand up their B2B projects. So Stuart Gilchriest, what is your take home value for our listeners on this podcast?

Stuart:
Yeah, I love this part, Steve. I think for me and this is universal across B2B, B2C, but especially relevant in my role and in B2B in general. You've got to recognize that your CX program is never static. It's always changing based on the environment around you. Now the CX program is going to have a life cycle just like everything else. And crucially, those phases don't always happen in a straight line. So you've got to have what I often call a shark mentality, never stops swimming, always keep moving forwards. Whether you're brand new and you're establishing your program, it can really be a grind. But if you keep pushing and you've got one on one eye on the future, you're going to get there. But if you're reestablished, I think it's it's the flip side. It can be a dangerous place if you take for granted the the buy in and approval you have within an organization. So you've got to keep reinforcing your value. You're never done with that because you're one leadership change away from having to start back at the beginning. So that's my take home value. Steve But you've been doing this for, for longer than pretty much anyone else. So so what's your take home value from today?

Steve:
Well, I'm going to I'm going to leverage off of what you just said, because that's been the fun part of this going back and forth. But I really liked your take home value and I really want to reinforce that just sort of from the perspective of somebody who's seen lots of companies and lots of CX pros do it. And you said you're never really done. What we're talking about being customer focused is like being spiritual. It's like being a good friend. It's like being a good parent. You know, you can't control all the outside influences that are that are happening, but you can control your own behavior and what you focus on. And you also have some control over each of your relationships you're involved with. And so I think when you come from a place of high intent and our intent as CX pros should be to represent the customer's best interest. But for the benefit of our organization and you're right, that's you're never done. You can only control your own activity and and a certain percentage of your relationships. And you have to be aware of all the dynamics that are changing around you. But the main focus, as you said, you always got to keep swimming like a shark, keep the long term in mind and make progress. That iterating off of that and sticking with the process will deliver the results. Stuart Gilchriest, thanks for being a great guest on The CX Leader Podcast. If anybody would like to continue the conversation, I think they could find you on LinkedIn or if you want to give them any other place that they might want to connect with you.

Stuart:
Thanks for having me, Steve. It's been a real pleasure. Linkedin is the best place to find me. Always open to new connections and outreach, so feel free to hit me up there.

Steve:
Great. Stuart Gilchriest, my guest director, CX strategy at UKG. Really a pleasure to have you on. And it was a lot of fun. Thanks for kind of shifting the program a little bit and allowing me to get a little more of my licks in today. And we'll look forward to having you on again sometime soon. Hey, and if you want to talk about anything you heard on this podcast or about how Walker can help your businesses customer experience, feel free to email me at podcast@walkerinfo.com. Remember to give The CX Leader Podcast or rating through your podcast service and give us a review. Your feedback will help us improve the show and deliver the best possible value to you, our listener. Check out our website cxleaderpodcast.com to subscribe to the show. Find all our previous episodes, podcast series and contact information so you can let us know how we're doing or drop us a note for maybe the subject of a future podcast like Stuart did here. The CX Leader Podcast is a production of Walker. We're an experience management firm that helps companies accelerate their XM success. You can read more about us at walkerinfo.com. Thank you for listening. And remember, it's a great time to be a CX leader. So take your tips from The CX Leader Podcast. Go out there, swim like a shark and we will see you again next time.

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