Go Where There’s Traction

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Steve:
When you're one of the largest membership organizations in the country with thousands of moving parts, how do you pull all the pieces together and focus on the customer?

Bryan:
You know, in an organization like AAA, there are plenty of open fields to run pilots and do testing. And, you know, I'm fortunate that if there's a certain item that I want to experiment with and, you know, one of the operating clubs isn't interested, there's often a different operating club that will be quite interested.

Steve:
How to get CX work done in a complex internal environment, on this episode of The CX Leader Podcast.

Announcer:
The CX Leader Podcast with Steve Walker is produced by Walker, an experienced management firm that helps our clients accelerate their XM success. You can find out more at walkerinfo.com.

Steve:
Hello, everyone. I'm Steve Walker, host of The CX Leader Podcast and thank you for listening. It's never been a better time to be a CX leader, and we explore topics and themes to help leaders like you deliver amazing experiences for your customers. Almost immediately after the first horseless carriages appeared on America's roads, motorists began organizing automobile clubs. AAA formed in 1902 with 1500 members. Now, AAA is saving the day after a breakdown and making dream vacations a reality for more than 62 million members. The logistics of that aren't easy, but today's guest is making it easy. My guest on this episode is Bryan Sander, managing director of member experience at AAA, the member based automotive club that I'm sure many of our listeners are familiar with but probably don't know everything about it. Bryan's also a board member of the CXPA and you know that we have long had an association with the CXPA and if you're not a member of the CXPA and you're in this space, you ought to be. But I'm just delighted to have Bryan on to share his story because AAA is a fascinating business. It is… it is definitely customer experience intense. And I think our listeners are really going to get a lot out of this. So Bryan, welcome to The CX Leader Podcast.

Bryan:
Hi, Steve. Thank you. It's great to be here.

Steve:
Well, it's great to have you. And full disclosure, I know, Bryan, we have a lot of relationships, but you know, we rarely have a better podcast when we have an actual practitioner who comes in and actually tells their story. And I think the customer experiences that we experience as consumers like you do as a AAA member, are some of the most relatable for for all of us in the profession and should really be guiding our own work. So I think this is going to be a tremendous episode. One of the things we always do, Bryan, is I ask our guests to kind of share their own journey to becoming a CX pro, since most of us probably didn't start out to be here but found our way here eventually. So just give us a little bit of your your background and how you eventually ended up getting to AAA?

Bryan:
Yep, you bet. So I like to say that I started my my professional career in a call center. I wore a headset and talked to customers doing tech support all day, every day and actually just fell in love with the feeling of solving one by one, solving customer problems and, you know, the sense of pride that I got from it, but also the relief that you could hear in the customer when solving those problems. That was a financial services and software company. And so I sort of stayed in the customer operations side for quite some time, getting, you know, progressively larger roles. Um, in the early 2000s got exposure to the net promoter methodology. Fred Reichheld was working with the company I was at at the time, Intuit, so I had a kind of a front row seat to watching how a company deploys net promoter and loyalty, still running operations at larger and larger scale, and then moved up to Boston, joined an enterprise software company that you know well ACI worldwide where I ran global support and that was the first role that I sort of hybrid it and I had the operations side but also helped the business to adopt an end to end customer experience improvement, sort of a steering committee. We brought in a loyalty program. We actually used Walker, who I recently learned is still servicing that company, which is awesome, you know, decades later to hear that. And then another couple of stops in large scale operations at BPO type companies and ultimately in 2017 moved from Boston to Orlando, traded blizzards for hurricanes and joined AAA, where I took on actually what was my first pure CX-only leadership role that didn't also have operations. So I went from kind of roughly running a team of 2000 associates to a team of two actually, when I started at AAA.

Steve:
Yeah, that's I just got to revisit a little bit because you've got quite a pedigree. I mean, Intuit was one of the darlings of Reichheld and he wrote about them extensively and they are, I think, one of the great customer experience tech stories. And the software was everywhere. I actually knew the CEO there at the time, Steve Bennett, a little bit. I crossed over with him. It was more of a personal friendship, but yeah, awesome company. And then you mentioned ACI Worldwide, you know, enterprise software, B2B super complex. And then I think your, your background kind of coming out of the tech support side is, is one of the typical paths I see is, you know, a lot of this does go back to customer service. You know, I think I came up kind of the the other way that's a little more traditional, sort of the market research side where we we really started to put in these longitudinal studies around customer experience that were tracked, just like we track other operational data. And that's kind of one version of how I think this whole CX thing happened is it was kind of a convergence of those those two things. And the call centers were rich in data, and the market research folks probably had not access that data until we started to put some of that customer service. Kind of what are the internal metrics saying and what's the customer actually feeling? And that was powerful. I think so…

Bryan:
Yeah. You know, it's interesting, we didn't have the language for it, so this is decades ago. But I can remember even in that first job, kind of doing CX like I would go to my manager with a customer flow and be like, Oh, here's how we should do it. You know, here's the future state, not even having the language. And then over those decades there was just more and more pattern recognition. I'm like, Wait, I could be going upstream, designing better end to end experiences before things go sideways and a customer has to contact us for service or support. And that's kind of how my my arc moved over to, you know, CX and experience design from coming up from operations. But I find that regardless of whether it's like a marketing and market research person or a product person, I think that a lot of CX pros have in common this ability of systems thinking like not technical systems, but just seeing end to end systems and the underlying pieces that fulfill an end to end customer journey or customer experience. I think that's one thing that a lot of us have in common.

Steve:
You know what? This is not the topic of our show today, but sometime we're going to do another version. We'll talk about this because I think we're on to something here. I you know, I think back to my old days, like we'd have a B2B client that only had like 100 key customers, you know, 100 customers made up their 90% of their business. And I said we could take these individual responses, you know, and we'd have multiple responses within that customer. And I said, we can link this up to your like, your financial data, and we could… We could write algorithms for and we could look at what the forecasts are and budgets and… Oh, you know, we can't go get that information. Nobody has that information. And I'm going, there's this there's I know your CFO is, is thinking about it that way. So yeah, that's cool stuff. You know, and I think because of technology and because of the way it's evolved, now, we can do it. And that's one of the reasons why we say it's a great time to be a CX leader. Okay, I digress as usual, but always interesting. We have a great conversation. Hey, again, I'm I'm a little biased. I've been a AAA member for 50 years. I've been on the board of the Hoosier Motor Club here in Indiana for 20 years, honored to have been involved with such a great organization. So I think everybody knows the brand. But just tell us a little bit more for our discussion about the complexity and the scope and scale of of what is AAA?

Bryan:
You bet. So I'll give this answer on two dimensions. First, the products and businesses we serve. So everyone's heard of AAA largely for our hallmark service and roadside, you know, dead batteries and flat tires and so on. We we save members at the roadside over 30 million times a year. But beyond that business line, we have a huge top rated travel agency business that books billions and billions of dollars of travel every year. We also have a very large life and property and casualty insurance business. We've also got separately financial service businesses, including one of the best consumer credit card offers on the market in terms of no fees and high rewards. And then we also have a slew of other discounts and rewards as well. So everything, you know, show your AAA card and save on anything from movie tickets to eyeglasses. I mean, there are tens of thousands of partners we have in that business. So, you know, you start to see that we don't just do roadside service. We have all these other areas of members lives. Our goal is really to create members for life. And my language is secure and enrich the lives of our members.

Bryan:
So that's the complexity of the multiple products. And then internally the operating environment is pretty complex. We're very similar to what you would think of as a franchise model, like an NFL or a Blue Cross Blue Shield in that we have over 20 independent operating companies in the United States and here, I mean separate entities, separate boards, separate CEOs, separate financials. Et cetera. And where I sit, we call AAA Inc or just the national office is a small governing and oversight and facilitation organization that we own the brand and we coordinate where execution makes sense to execute across all consistently. And we can talk more about examples of that if needed. So it's some of those independent operating companies are quite large think multibillion dollar organizations and some are actually quite small think one county in the US. And so that also adds to the complexity in terms of how you got to navigate that landscape and reach consensus and gain alignment before we can go from strategy to execution. So there's a lot of different layers of complexity here.

Steve:
Yeah. One thing we talk about here is it is a distributed business model. So you really have like 20 laboratories out there, right? And your role at National is, you know, and I think this is why it's going to be so interesting to discuss this. But you do kind of maintain the standards of the brand to protect the brand. So AAA has been using customer feedback for a very long time. I think it's probably why I was asked to become involved in the board kind of with my background. But this is one of the ways that we monitor these independent clubs can live up to the kind of the brand expectations and the values that we associate with that very valuable brand.

Bryan:
Yeah. I should clarify some of our internal languages, we call those operating companies clubs as in automobile club, which is what you all just heard. Steve refer to them as. Some of them are the extremely large ones, have world class CX operations. They have a chief experience officer, full teams doing journey mapping and identifying moments that matter and working improvement programs. And some some are not as mature. So I guess we'll get into how the national office engages and participates with those.

Steve:
After 50 years as a member, 20 years kind of being involved very deeply, I still am fascinated by the business and I have such admiration for the people who deliver these really critical services and our members. And it is an insurance policy. It's a peace of mind that AAA provides its members that they know somebody's going to be there if they need some help. So very mission driven and purpose focused. So let's talk a little bit more about the CX program and how you how you structure that. And especially at scale with 62 million members and 20 operating companies or clubs.

Bryan:
No kidding. So within our organization, I mentioned that when I started. So I give our CEO lots of credit. He's the one who decided to create a CX function out of our national office. And again, we started with two people doing classic experience design, sort of design thinking projects. Over the six years that I've been involved, we've sort of aggregated and combined. So the what we call insights and experience. That team now includes customer experience design, it includes our market research, which we call consumer insights. It also includes all of our BI, data analytics and digital analytics, and it includes some of our digital product management. And then lastly, and this one's a great feeder into CX work. It includes our Executive Office Complaints team, which we call Member relations. And so that's a gold mine of member complaints are often very, very helpful to illuminate and really put an emotional dimension around some specific improvement ideas that we. So that's the scope of the team Now. It's roughly around 40 folks at National. And then we engage with all of those operating clubs where we come to agreement that it makes sense to do a project jointly. So the members don't know that we have all these independent operating companies and it's seamless to them when they engage with the AAA brand and a lot of times their needs are the same, whether they're in, you know, Seattle, Orlando, Chicago or Dallas. And so, for example, in a digital channel project, we might conclude, All right, let's run this as a single project. And in that situation, oftentimes my team will get involved starting at the design thinking stage and then working all the way through to mapping, to requirements, to deployment.

Steve:
And just scope, scale, like how many different programs and you count number of surveys and things like that?

Bryan:
We do robustly survey and listen to our members through a variety of listening posts and we're testing new ways to listen all the time. You know, as these platforms like Qualtrics and Medallia come out with more and more ambient listening, that's I think I forget which one of them I heard it from, but you know, I like their quote. The days of just asking a customer for a survey after the experience, those days are quickly coming to an end, meaning we shouldn't stop doing that, but we can now layer on so much more real time information while a member or customer is going through a journey, and then also layer on historical information about what we know of their past consumption or just their preferences as a customer. So today's CX program looks a lot more like real time orchestration guiding next best action and not just reacting after the fact to to a good or a bad survey, so…

Steve:
So you have some listening posts where you're evaluating transactions like the quality of the road service, the quality of the travel agent, the quality of the insurance claim. Are there also sort of more holistic, what I would call more the relationship type of survey where we're trying to assess kind of the longer term value of that member.

Bryan:
Yep, you bet. One of one of the other teams I mentioned, our market research team does sort of an annual tracking study of the member base and we call that our member profile study. So there we understand what is their awareness of all of our different products and services? How important is each product or service? And then how satisfied is the member with each of those products or services? And that helps us guide investment decisions into where we either feed and uplevel or starve or reduce or eliminate some products and services over time based on member feedback. So that's like a tracking study that happens on a regular basis on a more like an annual cycle. We're also very tuned into how we sit versus competition and we're actually very proud of how we do versus competition here. We track things like Net promoter studies against some of the largest named competitors in those vertical business lines I mentioned earlier, but then also some of the large national or global membership businesses that have some characteristics we aspire to. But again, we are really proud of how we perform on a net promoter basis, almost, almost every competitor in almost every vertical. So those are more relational studies. And then you bet, I mentioned we we do 30 plus million roadside service events a year. We get millions and millions of survey responses back. And that is an area where we partner very closely with those operating clubs to help them understand how they're doing relative to each other, to help share best practices where some are performing really well and also understand there are geographic nuances and regional differences in terms of what area of the country they're providing service in. So sometimes they're sharing best practices about how to overcome those challenges too.

Steve:
Yeah, you think about road service like in an urban environment, but then think of it in Montana.

Bryan:
Or a complex tri state area like, you know, New York, New Jersey City or someplace that's got really tough geography like Pacific Northwest. Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah, yeah. So it is a fascinating business. And one one thing I just really want to reinforce because I think it's just so cool the way you articulated it, but this is why CX is so important is you couldn't have the AAA brand if you couldn't deliver on the promise that we put out there. And the measurement of that experience, you know, you couldn't fix it with advertising. You couldn't spend enough to fix it with advertising if it's not there. And another tricky part of this business, particularly in the places where you live through winter or weather events, you know, everybody wants the service at the same time, right, Like during a blizzard or a flood. So it's fascinating. Well, you know, we talked about how AAA does really make things look easy, but we know it's not easy. So what are some of the things that that you've overcome or that you know, in your experience bringing the other experience you've had at other companies to AAA? What are some of the nuances or some of the hurdles you've had to jump over?

Bryan:
I think the single biggest hurdle was the idea that we might approach customer experience design as a single brand instead of just running it, in some cases very well, but running it siloed separately by each of those operating companies. And you know, honestly, my first at bats early on after I joined AAA to try to engage with the oversight and governance groups that would approve that kind of work, they were a little bit bumpy. And so there were some learnings there for me around change management and how to put myself, you know, deploy empathy and put myself in the shoes of these decision makers to understand how to how to alleviate their fears and how to demonstrate that there would be incremental lift in value by taking a different approach.

Steve:
We see this all the time is there's legacy within organizations. And again, if you think about the the road business, it's a pretty it's a tough business with some it's a operating business. You know, you've got to have trucks and people and dispatchers and equipment and supplies. I could see how the old line legacy operator, you know, you start talking about how the customer feels and stuff, you know, hey, we're just towing cars here. So I remember back in the old days, I remember kind of being in a manufacturing organization where they just could not get their head around the fact that the, you know, these products were engineered so well that there just couldn't be a reason why a customer wouldn't have some, you know, wouldn't accept just just the pure product. And that was kind of the the evolution of where we were going to more of this experience economy. So…

Steve:
Hey, my guest on the podcast this week is Bryan Sander. He's managing director of member Experience at the iconic brand of AAA. And you know, with the different clubs and with the different operating companies. And then all the different aspects. What are kind of the key relationships? You talked a little bit about how you outreach to that, and that's a topic we talk about on the podcast, but what are kind of some of the relationship tricks or the things that you've learned over the last six, seven years?

Bryan:
Yeah, I have a few things here. The first is, you know, go where there's traction. You know, in an organization like AAA, there are plenty of open fields to run pilots and do testing. And, you know, I'm fortunate that, you know, if there's a certain item that I want to experiment with and, you know, one of the operating clubs isn't interested, there's often a different operating club that will be quite interested. So the second one is speak their language, not your language. So if you heard Sheila and Troy's recap of the CX leaders conference, I spoke there and I gave this visual of like, you can either come across like you're from another planet speaking all this CX language and you can talk to them about, you know, journey maps and service blueprints and customer intimacy, and they'll sort of like, you know, that's alien language to them. Or you can come to them. You know, I had the vision of like showing an alien from outer space and then showing, you know, Christopher Reeve's Clark Kent. Like you can come to them using their language in a way that's not going to alienate them and orient your work against their priorities, their bonus scorecard, their business. And you'll get a lot more traction if you just speak their language, don't speak your language. So that's a second one. And then the third is, I mean, I'm huge on simplicity. So I think the quote here is sort of like generally speaking, simplicity scales and complexity often fails. And so said differently, one of my old six-sigma coaches would always say, don't try to do a flying, spinning back kick if you can't even just throw a jab. You know, it's just like start with the basics. Put some stackable wins on the board, Don't bite off more than you can chew. Start simple. So those are three practices that have helped me a lot.

Steve:
That's a great I just dialing in to that second one. We just had a podcast where we talked about the old days where we used to show up with our deck of a hundred slides on CX and you'd see them start to gloss over and it didn't take long to say, Hey, let's, let's talk to these operators who what are their issues? And then pull out some nuggets or create a dashboard for them that really provides some insight into the problems they're already thinking about. So…

Bryan:
Yeah, one of the things I like to say is if we do this well, I have a vision over the long haul that CX will be seen as an accelerant or a secret weapon by CEOs everywhere who understand it drive profitable growth. But the point is linking the CX work to existing business objectives and business outcomes. Instead of making your C-level or your board feel like it's a net new bolt on one more extra thing we've got to have the organization do. My view is, you know, over time CX probably can become more and more just how we run the organization.

Steve:
Excellent. Yeah, you're spot on there. And I think that's, again, another reason why it's a great time to be a CX pro. We know that we've got insights that will help senior executives make positive change, that will will help them meet their vision and their aspirations, but also drive the kind of business performance that they're paid to, paid to drive. So I always I've always talked like, you know, now we have the chief customer officers sometimes or you have somebody like you that's got this integrated listening and and design thinking. But the real key is you've got to have an enlightened executive who really believes that this can give them competitive advantage, kind of an information advantage, kind of like the Moneyball thing. Like I can pull out some stuff that I can use that we will only have because we're the ones working on this information. All right. I get all excited here. You know, again, we really the issue today is talking about complexity and operating when when you don't have the formal authority, but really enhancing the the approach. What are some of the principles that somebody that is if I'm a say, I'm a CX pro in a big company, I'm kind of just starting now and I'm experienced some of the things that you've been through, what are some of those principles that somebody that's in a big organization, what would be helpful to be kind of their mindset?

Bryan:
Yeah, well, I would reiterate the one about, you know, keep the CX language internal, like when you're talking to stakeholders or trying to gain traction across the building or the company, you know, speak in the language of your business client or stakeholder for sure in terms of what you should actually do if you're stepping into that sort of a role. Or I would start with customer listening. And if there's not some sort of listening system in place, meaning surveys, focus groups, you know, et cetera. I would certainly want to recommend starting there and not starting with everything all at once. Pick either a symbolic and important product or service or pick something you know that's less visible as a way to have a safe space to experiment and just learn all the all the sort of basic blocking and tackling around creating a or listening program. How what tech do you use? You know, do you are you deploying by text message email? Et cetera. And then what do you do with the data? How do you visualize it? That's sort of like one part of customer listening that I would say if you're not deep and strong on that, that's a place to start. And then a second one we were talking about this before we started recording is again an old Six Sigma technique ride the trains.

Bryan:
So the power of anecdotal, firsthand observation of customers or members using your product or service in the real world that has a power and gives you an authority and authenticity that's really going to get attention internally. So it's one thing if you've got a group of execs sitting around a conference table saying, Well, I think customers need X, Y or Z. And if you say, well, I was in the example we're talking about, I was riding in a tow truck yesterday when we picked up a member on the side of I-95. Here's what I saw. Here's what I think we need to consider. There's an instant level of credibility there. It's an anecdote. It's an n of one or n of a few. But if you blend the two together. So this is where I like to start customer listening with a data quant side and then the qual side of some firsthand observation, I think. That would provide you enough energy and motivation and focus to understand. All right. I know what problem number one is that I want to now go pitch internally to try to get support to go go fix.

Steve:
Yeah, I love your Six Sigma reference here. I'll go back to Deming. You know, he, he, he said like he wrote this like in the 60s or 70s but he said to love variation in your data and to hate it in your processes and the example you used of going out, what I would call kind of an ethnographic type of assessment, if you got your data and you have like, for example, one club that has really good scores and one club that maybe is not having some good scores, going out and riding with them and looking at their ops is probably a great thing to do. So perfect example. And I think any CX pro could apply that.

Bryan:
You bet. That could be going to a wireless store and adding an account to your cell phone plan. It could be logging on and trying to change your address on an account. It could be going to a grocery store and saying, okay, you got to make this recipe for dinner tonight. Here are the ingredients. You have nine minutes. Go get them. Like you can do that ride the trains thing all day long.

Steve:
We also want to give a shout out. Bryan's a board member of the National CXPA. Bryan, I know this is something that's just very, very important to you and your contributions to profession. We're grateful that somebody like you is willing to to do that because I know it's a load, but an extra work. But talk a little bit about the CXPA and what it's meant to you and what it means for our profession.

Bryan:
I'm super excited to have joined the board of CXPA. If you're not familiar with this and you're in the customer experience space, I would urge you to check out cxpa.org. You're going to find tools, techniques, a tribe to help you deeply understand. Like you don't have to invent all this stuff yourself. There are some really well defined best practices and a great peer group that can offer coaching and support. It's it's a tremendous community and I'm learning that it it may be is actually one of the best kept secrets among the CX community. So that's another reason I wanted to talk about it. You know it's a tremendously deep and rich source of of help and support. So I really encourage people to check that out.

Steve:
Yeah. Again, kind of this side theme we've been running about the history of of our profession, but I can remember for years people talking about certifications and CXPA has done that, which is just a, you know, another cool part of how our profession has matured and kind of where we're at today. So thanks. And we do stuff with CXPA all the time on the podcast. It's again, if you're a fan of the podcast and you're not hooked in with CXPA, do yourself a favor and get that going. All right. Bryan Sander, we have reached that point at The CX Leader Podcast where I ask every guest for their take home value. This is your tip or trick, and it's designed that if you've been listening to this podcast and you say, Hey, this guy knows, knows his stuff, I ought to probably lean into this a little bit. So. Bryan Sander, AAA, give us your take home value, something that our pros can take and go put into their program and and improve it starting tomorrow.

Bryan:
Yep, you bet. It's as simple as this. Start with empathy and maybe overlay that with some kindness. So in a CX practitioner role, we always do design thinking and start with empathy with the customer. You know, what are their pains and gains, wants, needs, hopes, expectations. But here, I mean, if you're pitching to internal stakeholders, start with empathy with them. What are their… Like do CX on them? And your first step should be to empathize with those stakeholders doing stakeholder analysis to deeply understand what it means to be walking a mile in their shoes that's going to bring down walls and improve effectiveness in whatever you're solving for immensely. One more thing I want to sneak in here is this concept of starting with empathy. It also applies in our personal lives. So every important relationship friends, family, kids, significant other think about deploying this today, lead with empathy and kindness. Put yourself in their shoes first. Again, it's going to bring down walls. It's going to improve the results for you, not just in CX work, but I'm fully convinced in your entire life that's my value add.

Steve:
You know, I love that. I think CX really does transcend the business world. And in the business world, we didn't really talk about kind of emotional stuff, but we never like would say, Are you satisfied with your children? You know, do you love your children? You want them to be, you know. So I think that concept is is great. And so, hey, thanks for doing that. It's not just for your profession. It's kind of for your own approach to life. So thanks for doing that. Hey, Bryan Sander's been a great guest on the podcast this week. He is the managing director of member experience at AAA. And a delightful guest. Thanks, Bryan, for being on the podcast. I hope we'll get you back again sometime.

Bryan:
Absolutely, Steve. This was fun. Thanks for having me.

Steve:
And if anybody would want to continue the discussion, I know you're on LinkedIn. When they listen to this episode, they'll be able to see how your name is spelled. But can they find you at the AAA website? That's probably pretty complex, huh? Probably LinkedIn. The best.

Bryan:
The simplest thing is LinkedIn. Bryan Sander, AAA, I'll pop right up.

Steve:
Okay, great. Thanks. Hey, and if you want to talk about anything else you heard on this podcast or about how Walker can help your business's customer experience, feel free to email us at podcast@walkerinfo.com. Remember to give The CX Leader Podcast a rating through your podcast service and give us a review. Your feedback will help us improve the show and deliver the best possible value to you, our Listener. Check out our website cxleaderpodcast.com to subscribe to the show and find all previous episodes. Our podcast series. There's great content over 270 episodes out there right now. You can also drop us a note. Let us know how we're doing or suggest an idea for a future show. The CX Leader Podcast is a production of Walker. We're an experience management firm that helps companies accelerate their success. You can read more about us at Walkerinfo.com. Hey, thank you for listening. And remember, it's a great time to be a CX leader. So go out there and lead with empathy. Put yourself in your customer's shoes and in your all your important relationships and you will make the world a better place. So thanks for listening and we'll see you again next week.

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