Talk Less, Listen More
Release Date:
What’s the first thing you think of when asked, “how well do you listen?” Many CX professionals might think of their listening systems: surveys, close-loop feedback, listening architectures. Some may say they interact with clients on a regular basis. But what about actively listening? Talking less and letting others express themselves, and then reassuring them that the conversation was worth it. Host Sara Walker welcomes Marisa Schwartz, senior regional medical director for St. Luke’s University Health Network, to discuss the importance of active listening.
Marisa Schwartz
St. Luke’s University Health Network
Connect with Marisa
In this episode:
- Chapter 1: Introduction (00:00 – 02:16)
- Chapter 2: Marisa Schwartz’s Background and Role (02:16 – 03:58)
- Chapter 3: The Role of Communication in Patient Care (03:58 – 06:24)
- Chapter 4: Coaching Caregivers to Improve Listening Skills (06:24 – 09:43)
- Chapter 5: Self-Awareness and Patient Comfort (09:43 – 10:55)
- Chapter 6: Overcoming Communication Barriers (10:55 – 13:13)
- Chapter 7: The Broader Implications of Listening (13:13 – 15:03)
- Chapter 8: Following Through on Feedback (15:03 – 18:13)
- Chapter 9: The Personal Impact of Active Listening (18:13 – 20:34)
- Chapter 10: Take Home Value (20:34 – 21:44)
- Chapter 11: Conclusion and Contact Information (21:44 – 23:19)
Highlights
Listening is a skill you need to develop
“…we do need to treat listening and communication like we do our other clinical skills. And what I would ask the listeners, or maybe yourself or anybody else who is involved in in caring for others, how many classes have you had that teach you how to communicate and take it one step further? How many have you had on teaching you how to be become an active listener? I had none. So in my role, it was important for me to recognize this is a skill that I need to develop… myself before I can help others.”
Constantly Listening to improve experiences
“We are constantly listening, whether it be through social media, whether it be through certainly our surveys and the comments that our patients are giving us and acting. We’re not only listening and reading all of that valuable information, but then we are changing operations based on what our patients are telling us. They’re telling us, you know, hey, I have to wait too long to get in to see a neurologist. Okay? We’re going to fix that. We’re fixing the scheduling, fixing our whole scheduling system so that our patients don’t have to wait to to see the specialists. It may not be tomorrow, but it is something that we continually work on to make things better and more seamless for them.”
Transcript
Sara:00:00:00
As CX leaders, we like to think we’re pretty good at listening to customers or clients. But in a health care setting, active listening can lead to life saving results.
Marisa:00:00:09
When I listen to patients and I mean really listen to patients, the tone of their voice, watching their body language and facial expressions, in addition to listening to the words that are there coming out of their mouth or that they’re speaking to me, I can help them not just as a patient, but as the whole person.
Sara:00:00:30
Let’s learn how we can be better listeners on this episode of The CX Leader Podcast.
Announcer:00:00:42
The CX Leader Podcast is produced by Walker, an experience management firm that helps our clients accelerate their XM success. You can find out more at walkerinfo.com.
Sara:00:00:53
Hi everyone. I’m Sara Walker, host of this episode of The CX Leader Podcast, and thank you for listening. It’s a great time to be a CX leader, and we explore topics and themes to help leaders like you develop great programs and deliver amazing experiences for your customers. What’s the first thing you think when I ask, how well do you listen? As CX professionals, you might think your listening system: surveys, closed loop feedback, listening architectures. Maybe others would think about the fact that they interact with clients on a regular basis. But what about actively listening, talking less, and letting others express themselves and then reassuring them that the conversation was worth it? My guest today has a great deal of experience in listening to patients. Marisa Schwartz is the senior regional medical director for St. Luke’s University Health Network and oversees the patient experience there. Marisa, welcome to The CX Leader Podcast.
Marisa:00:01:47
Thank you so much for having me, Sara.
Sara:00:01:50
Yeah, I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation around learning how to listen. And even though we indicated it in our intro, maybe to help start the conversation from the right foot, you can talk a little bit about how what your role is like overseeing the patient experience, and a little bit of your background that led you to that responsibility today. I think that’ll be a helpful context for the rest of our conversation.
Marisa:00:02:16
I’d be happy to. I have such a unique journey that has brought me to this point, um, in my career. So I’ve been with the St. Luke’s University Health Network for over 22 years and currently serve as the Senior Medical Director for Patient Experience and Hospitalist Services and other clinical operational areas. I’m a nurse practitioner by background. I went to nursing school to become a nurse practitioner because I knew that I belonged in the medical field to help help patients. So I’ve been a hospitalist nurse practitioner for 18 years. Of those 22 at St. Luke’s. And early in my career, I had patients comment that I was the best quote doctor they ever had. And that got me to think, why are they saying that? I’m not doing anything extraordinary for them. Their plans are already set. So I started to really pay attention to communication, the communication with patients, and realized that when patients are vulnerable, especially in the hospital, they need someone who is caring, compassionate, and who is a great listener. Um, and about five years ago, this RCO called and said, you know, we’re really looking for someone to lead patient experience for the organization. Are you willing and without without any hesitation? I was like, yes, absolutely. So now I have this really cool role where I still get to see patients, but I get to influence other, um, leaders and clinicians throughout the organization. And listening has become a very big part of that.
Sara:00:03:58
Yeah, well, that’s a really neat foray into the world of patient experience. I think customer, customer experience, patient experience, employee experience, everyone kind of has a unique path to how they got here, and it’s particularly insightful. I think that yours is so directly tied to just the basic function of of listening. And listening to patients in a vulnerable setting, of course, is going to be an important element to the care that’s being provided. Can you talk about that maybe a little bit more broadly in terms of when we think about communication in the patient experience, communication in a health care setting, what makes it so vital with patient experience specifically?
Marisa:00:04:38
Sure. Um, I’m fortunate enough that I do have a dual role, um, in administration and the clinical worlds, but they both require me to be an excellent listener. And as a clinician when I listen to patients, when I’m and I mean really listen to patients, the tone of their voice, watching their body language and facial expressions, in addition to listening to the words that are there coming out of their mouth or that they’re speaking to me, I can help them not just as a patient, but as the whole person. I’ve had experiences where treatments were started for patients. We’re going down one direction, but they weren’t quite getting better. And then I sit with them and ask them more questions and just listen to them. And this leads to the proper diagnosis. And one particular patient comes to mind. She was suffering from some very common, um, symptoms. However, the one thing she said to me in a conversation caught my attention and it led me to do, um, additional diagnostic testing on her. And we found that sneaky…
Sara:00:05:51
Wow.
Marisa:00:05:51
…cancerous tumor. We found it…
Sara:00:05:53
My god.
Marisa:00:05:54
…and to this day, she still has referred to me as her angel. So listening really is the foundation for building that trust between a clinician and and their patient. For me, my directors um, and and me, um, if I want patients to follow the medical recommendations that I’m making…
Sara:00:06:18
Right?
Marisa:00:06:18
…I need them to trust me. And…
Sara:00:06:20
Yeah.
Marisa:00:06:20
…the only way to build trust is to be a good listener.
Sara:00:06:24
Yeah. It is such an important life skill. And certainly it’s so applicable in our industry, and I would say even more so in the health care setting when really patients are in a vulnerable state. And I think to some of your initial points here, really want to feel heard and how to make sure that that helps with the adoption of the recommendations that the clinicians would be providing. But, you know, listening is a skill and it’s a skill that people have to constantly work on. So I’m curious, with your background and just that being a strong trait of yours as an individual nurse practitioner, how is that something that you can help coach other caregivers through, how to improve, or how to work at it? Are there certain steps you recommend?
Marisa:00:07:12
I’m so glad you asked that because we do need to treat listening and communication like we do our other clinical skills. And what I would ask, uh, the listeners, or maybe yourself or anybody else who is involved in in caring for others, how many classes have you had that teach you how to communicate and take it one step further? How many have you had on teaching you how to be become an active, um, listener? I had none. So, um, in my role, it was important for me to recognize this is a skill that I need to develop. I
Sara:00:07:48
Yeah.
Marisa:00:07:49
Need to develop myself before I can help others. And I liken it to, you know, when you go on an airplane and the flight attendant comes on and says, you know, in the event of an emergency, put your own oxygen mask on before you can help somebody…
Sara:00:08:04
Yep.
Marisa:00:08:04
…else? This is similar to that, uh, you… me as a leader, as the patient experience leader for the organization. I need to be able to develop my listening skills and become an expert so that I can help others and teach others. But it took it took some intentional, uh, development on my part. And I can tell you a couple of things that we’ve done and that we offer to our clinicians and employees in the organization. We as a hospitalist team went through a simulation. Um, our Sim Center about 12 years ago, and we work with the most amazing standardized patients. They’re actors, but you wouldn’t know it. Um, and then they record the session so you can watch yourself and listen to yourself. And I was I realized I was doing some things, probably because I was a nervous wreck being recorded, but my leg was so it was shaking so rigorously and it was distracting. I’m sure it was distracting for the patient and for myself. So it’s those types of things that I’ve developed over the years so that I’m not a distraction for myself, and also for the person who I’m talking to, um, so that we can get the most out of the interaction that we have. Uh, so that’s what I would say is know that about yourself. Um, make sure that you’re completely present when someone is talking to you, especially a patient. Um, focus on them. And, um, we don’t have a ton of time to spend. Uh, so it’s important to make sure that the time you do have is completely focused on what that person is, um, is talking to you about.
Sara:00:09:43
Yeah. I think you said a couple really enlightening things for me there. The first being around self-awareness. And I think that’s definitely applicable to any of our listeners who maybe aren’t specific to the healthcare industry. But when you’re thinking about what your company, what your brand is trying to ask of customers, certainly not having a predisposed notion of what your experience is supposed to be like, or what your brand is supposed to represent, is probably something that would be good for all of us to keep in mind. Then the second piece, when you’re thinking about self-awareness as just an individual, it’s right. It’s like I’m interpreting what you’re saying as how do you make the patient the most comfortable, that you can make them so that you can get at what is really going on, certainly faster, hopefully because your time is limited in the health care setting, but also to be sure that they’re opening up and really getting to the root of of understanding that you’re looking for in the conversation.
Marisa:00:10:41
Absolutely. Um, because if not, we’re at risk of missing something very important that could impact their health. I have made it a point to talk less and listen more.
Sara:00:10:54
Yeah.
Marisa:00:10:55
Even if it’s ten more seconds for that person, um, to just silence really can be very, very powerful.
Sara:00:11:13
Certainly it’s easy to talk less when, or maybe this is my own, my own personal interpretation because I am a bit of a talker. Shocker.
Marisa:00:11:20
So am I.
Sara:00:11:21
As you know, a host of a podcast. Yeah, a participant in a podcast here. But so I tend to kind of fill the space, I think, and it’s something I try to be self aware of. But how do you do that? How do you approach that when you want and you have the full intention of doing your best active listening, but maybe the person you’re the patient in this example is a little less forthcoming. Are there any strategies that you can employ to try to get them to, to talk, to be able to, to hear what it is you’re looking to hear as far as some of the the root issues.
Marisa:00:11:52
Yes. And it actually just happened to me, um, this week on service. Uh, I had a patient just like that. I knew there was something more he wanted to tell me. Um, but, um, I just I really was having a hard time getting out, getting it out of him. So for me, it was creating the environment of, um, I need him to trust me that I am here to help him and to listen. So I sat down. That was very intentional. I wasn’t too close. Like, I didn’t get creepy close, but I was close to his bed and I asked him a question. He answered the question, but then I was very intentional and I said, tell me more. And then I was quiet and it felt like probably ten minutes. I know it wasn’t that long, but there were multiple social issues that he ended up sharing with me that were impacting, you know, affording medications and complying with the with the treatment regimen that we are recommending. And he was sitting there thinking, how am I going to do it? How am I going to do all this? And if I didn’t stop, if I just left the room, I wouldn’t have learned it and I was able to get some resources in for him. I can’t fix all of the problems, but if I could just take one of those burdens away, and I don’t know that I would have learned that if I just left the room and said, okay, I’ll see you tomorrow.
Sara:00:13:13
Yeah. To reflect on that, it’s like that’s so key. And I think it’s really what all of us listening as, as experience professionals are aiming to do. Right? We’re in the industry that we’re in because we’re aiming to make improvements. We’re aiming to help people. And that’s never more true than it is in the patient experience setting. But I think that is applicable to kind of the broader listening industry, which is when we can make sure that part of our communication strategy up front is ensuring that our customers, patients know why we’re asking is because we want to provide the best solution or the best improvement. Of course, that’s going to get us better insights, better data points. And in the case of the healthcare industry, you know, it can be life critical. So you know, what an important aspect to be able to develop some of those active listening skills. To that end, you know, when we tell the patients we’re asking them for their feedback, for their experience, we want to help them. How do you ensure that you’re delivering on the follow through? So I think in that example you just mentioned, you said you felt you followed up with resources and ways in which you could help that patient hopefully accomplish some of his concerns that he was initially holding back outside of something that direct. Are there other things that you employ in your patient experience strategy specific to the follow up?
Marisa:00:14:38
We are constantly listening, whether it be through social media, whether it be through certainly our surveys and the comments that our patients are giving us and acting. We’re not only listening and reading all of that valuable information, but then we are changing operations based on what our patients are telling us.
Sara:00:15:03
Yep.
Marisa:00:15:03
Um, they’re telling us, you know, hey, I have to wait too long to get in to see a neurologist. Okay? We’re going to fix that. We’re fixing the scheduling, fixing our whole scheduling system so that our patients don’t have to wait to to see the specialists. It may not be tomorrow, but it is something that we continually work on to make things better and more seamless for them. And I can tell you then from the administrative side, follow up is extremely important for those people who I’m leading, they come to me, they bring me, um, perhaps a problem. Maybe it’s something operationally. I’m pretty intentional with taking notes in front of people, but to show them I’m listening to you, I hear you. But also, um, it holds me accountable to then follow that up…
Sara:00:15:51
Yeah.
Marisa:00:15:51
…and close that loop with the leader who comes to me. Um, a patient example comes to mind about that follow up, which is extremely important, uh, for both people who are delivering health care, but also people who are receiving like our patients. I was called to the emergency department last week to assess a patient, an elderly woman, for possible admission, and let’s call her Vivian. And she is 92, suffering from heart failure, full of fluid, causing her legs to swell, fluid to accumulate in her lungs, which made it difficult for her to converse. She was grumpy. She was no stranger to health care or the hospital. And, um, I didn’t meet her prior to her coming, but I wanted to make sure that she knew she could trust me. So I gave her as much or as little as a time as she needed to answer the questions I was asking. She needed to catch her breath in between answers. Um, and when she did, when it was appropriate, I would then say, okay, Vivian, I think we should do this. And as the conversation went on, when I would recommend that her eyes got really big and she would say, yes, yes, I think that’s what we need to do. And, um, at the end of our visit, and it was not long, maybe 20 minutes, 25 minutes, I put my hand out to shake her hand and I said, thank you very much. And she said, thank you, kiddo. I mean, doctor Marisa, you really know what you’re doing, and I trust you, I love you. Um, those words will stay with me forever. I left her room. Her family followed me out of the emergency room and said she’s never told the doctor she loved her before. And when I reflect back on that, it was all because I listened to her and then I was following up. This is what we’re going to do. And I know that’s a very micro level with the one on one, but that’s what we do as an organization to
Sara:00:17:51
Yeah.
Marisa:00:17:51
When we hear something is is not right, we’re going to fix it. Um, at the organizational level, for me and my patients, I hear they need something. I’m going to do my best to make sure they get it. And that was that was quite an an interaction that really warmed my heart. And you know, she got what she needed to the patient.
Sara:00:18:13
Right. Which is your goal. And it’s, it’s it’s living the values that you are trying to conduct at scale or improve its scale within your broader patient experience program. And again, I think any of the leaders who are listening, most people do come while everyone does tend to come from a unique background, I think one thing that tends to be in common is that everyone was some, you know, has had individual customer or employee or patient interactions that help frame their perspective and their passion for the industry. And I think that especially in healthcare, it’s such a poetic reason for why you do what you do. And I think that that’s, you know, a special vote of confidence that you were able to receive that from Vivian, who you said, you know, is no stranger to what the field is normally like. And a good example, then, of what why you want to do what you want to do when it comes to listening. Has learning any of the communication skills that you’ve talked about today and you’ve shared in some of your examples, helped in in other areas as it relates to CX if you can think of, you know, maybe something that’s not as obvious of an application?
Marisa:00:19:19
Well, personally, at home I have two teenage daughters. Enough said. Right. Yeah. You have to be a really good listener at home.
Sara:00:19:27
Uh huh.
Marisa:00:19:28
Uh huh. I and I would say that from the not just the the patient experience side, but from the customer experience side in my administrative role, my directors, the employees. If you have a healthy workforce who can trust you as their leader and knows, listen, I can go to Marisa and I can pretty much tell her anything. She’s going to fix what she can, and she’s going to listen to others if they know that you’re there to have their back. A healthy workforce will will translate into a healthy patient experience. So the two go… I think you started at the beginning of this podcast, you talked about employee experience and they really go hand in hand.
Sara:00:20:09
Yeah.
Marisa:00:20:09
Um, yeah. And my work to develop myself as a good and I’m going to say an excellent clinical leader actually has translated into me being a better listener at home. So…
Sara:00:20:22
Yeah.
Marisa:00:20:22
…I can make a joke of it. But, um, it’s important at this point in my daughters lives who are, um, you know, teenagers and need a positive influence. So, um, it has helped in many areas.
Sara:00:20:34
Maybe, uh, we’re lucky that our industry is focused on experience and feedback, because listening is a life skill that everybody can apply outside of their job into their social lives and make the world a better place if we can all be better listeners, that’s for sure. Okay, Marisa, well, we’ve come to the point in our show where we ask all of our podcast guests to give us what we call their take home value. So if there was one tip or trick that you could give to other CX leaders, CX leaders in our space, what would that be in terms of improving their active listening skills?
Marisa:00:21:11
I love it, I love that you do this. And my take home would be to encourage people to talk less and really listen more. Um, that has been an invaluable tip that I’ve made part of my clinical practice as well as leadership. Give people ten more seconds, 15 more seconds to express themselves. And, um, just wait to see what you learn from from those extra 10 to 15 seconds.
Sara:00:21:44
I’m going to try that in my meetings later today. Not jump to fill the silence.
Marisa:00:21:47
Yes.
Sara:00:21:48
Wait. Wait and hear what others have to say. Ten more seconds. A great tip. Marisa Schwartz is the senior regional medical director for St. Luke’s University Health Network. Marisa, thank you again for being on The CX Leader Podcast. If any of our listeners want to reach out directly about a question they might have or a comment from today’s conversation, is there a way they could get in touch?
Marisa:00:22:09
Absolutely. I’m on LinkedIn and I’d be happy to connect that way.
Sara:00:22:12
Excellent. And if you have anything you want to discuss with one of our experts here at Walker, or if you have a great idea for a topic on a future episode, please email us at podcast@walkerinfo.com. We would love to hear from you! Be sure to rate The CX Leader Podcast through your podcast service and leave us a review. Your feedback helps us improve the show and ensures that we deliver the best possible value to you, our listener. Check out our website cxleaderpodcast.com. From there, you can follow the show and find all of our previous episodes and a link to the blog, which we update regularly. The CX Leader Podcast is a production of Walker. We’re an experience management firm that helps companies accelerate their XM success. You can read more about us at walkerinfo.com. Thank you for listening and remember, it’s a great time to be a CX leader. We’ll see you next time.
Tags: PX Sara Walker Marisa Schwartz St. Luke’s University Health Network listening active listening patient experience