The CX Leader Podcast: "The Long and Winding Road": Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

The CX Leader Podcast: "The Long and Winding Road": this wav audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Pat:
A career path can be a long and winding road. But what if your path takes you to CX? Or what if that's the destination you desire? What does it really take to be a CX leader?

Shelly:
I think it's really unique when you see people who come into customer experience from operations positions, from sales positions. And I think the reason that happens is because companies are trusting the people that work for them and they say, you know, the business, so you certainly know our customers.

Pat:
Building a career in CX on this episode of The CX Leader Podcast.

Announcer:
The CX Leader Podcast with Steve Walker is produced by Walker, an experience management firm that helps our clients accelerate their XM success. You can find out more at walkerinfo.com.

Pat:
Hello, everyone. I'm Pat Gibbons, guest host today of The CX Leader Podcast, filling in for Steve Walker. And I'm glad you're listening. As we like to say on this podcast, it's never been a better time to be a CX leader. And we explore topics and themes to help leaders like you deliver amazing experiences for your customers. Let's face it, few if any of us went to school to be a CX professional, and yet there are thousands in this flourishing profession. So what does it take to be a CX leader? What are the right skills and what is the best career path to take? How do you break into this and how do you determine whether your company will really support customer experience strategies? Well, wherever you may be on your career journey, our guests today will be able to expand your thoughts regarding a career in CX and provide some ideas to help you in your journey. Shelly Chandler is a certified CX professional and as head of customer experience for Delaware North, one of the largest privately held hospitality and food service companies in the world. Shelly, welcome to The CX Leader Podcast.

Shelly:
Thank you so much. Pat. I'm so excited to be here because, you know, I've had a long association with Walker. I have a lot of friends who have been in and out of Walker, and I've always admired the work that you do. So I'm really honored to be here today.

Pat:
Well, that's really kind of you to say, and I'm really excited about this topic. You know, just as a little bit of background for our listeners, I mean, we've known each other for a while through the CX industry, and we ran into each other at a conference and through a discussion we started talking about the career paths and we just thought, well, that's a great topic for the podcast, and it's one I'm almost embarrassed to say we haven't covered more in depth earlier, so I'm glad we're doing it today. So, you know, one of the things we'll talk a little bit about are what are the paths people take to get to CX? But why don't we why don't we start by hearing your path? How did you get in CX?

Shelly:
I always say it's a circuitous path, Pat, and for me it started in marketing communications, went into product marketing, and I stayed in that for a long time. You know, I got to do some continuous improvement along the way and customer research. But customer experience became a discrete profession. Somewhere around the late nineties, early 2000, she started to hear more people like us. We're doing this thing called customer experience, and I worked in financial services for about 17 years doing customer experience and then spent several years in customer experience consulting. I wanted to leave the world of the brand and go out and really go deeply on some of the more strategic aspects of customer experience. So I did that for a number of years and then recently the last three or four years came back to the brand side again to apply what I had learned in the consulting space.

Pat:
Yeah, that's a great experience. Do you see, I mean, you've been around a lot of different customer experience professionals, you know, through your involvement in various organizations, have you seen some distinct paths that people generally take that they either desire or end up in customer experience?

Shelly:
Yeah, you know, like you said, there aren't too many degrees for it. In fact, the CXPA just did a study about that. I was part of that committee. And what we found is there are several international and national marketing, not marketing, customer experience degrees in the US as well. But from an undergrad perspective, no, there really just aren't too many. There are a lot of classes on it. So when I went to school there were no classes on it. And you know, I do believe that you see people from market research take this path. It's a natural. In fact, people in market research sometimes wonder why we call it customer experience. I think that for them, it's it's all the same. Process improvement is another path I think is a great path. And typically in that field you might have some engineering background, which is a great background for where you could take the customer experience profession. So merging those two together really works well, but those are the two paths I see them.

Pat:
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I recall several years ago within CXPA, I put a question out on the community about how did you end up in CX? It was really interesting and it was for an article I was writing for a magazine. So we'll we'll try to tag that on the podcast page for people to read.

Shelly:
Pat I think it's really unique when you see people who come into customer experience from operations positions, from sales positions, but it does happen. And I think the reason that happens is because companies are, ah, trusting the people that work for them and they say, you know the business, so you certainly know our customers and know how we can move ahead here. And that's why you see a lot of people get transferred in.

Pat:
Yeah, I think you really do see it with some of the customer facing roles like you say, sales, customer support, those that you know, they really see and understand the customer and they want to be part of the strategy, I think. So what would you recommend to someone as far as CX skills if they're working on, you know, trying to get into a CX role? What are some of the skills that they should try to develop?

Shelly:
Customer experience skills ought to include data as the primary thing that you're really good at. And that's not easy for everybody. You know, that's requires analytical skills. It requires ability to kind of see detail, but also the big picture to look at that numbers and data and be able to tell a story from that. And I think that that is probably the most important skill to have. Other skills, which, again, don't really go with that personality or that profile are persuasion and influencing skills. There's something that might be a little bit more familiar for the salespeople. You really have to be well rounded to be successful in leading a customer experience effort. But if you aren't set on leading a customer experience program, you could concentrate on the data side and the insight side, or you can concentrate on the strategy side. There are different ways to go, but I think that data and influencing together are probably the two biggest.

Pat:
Yeah, yeah. And it's is it fair to say that it's really not feasible for anyone to have all the skills necessary to be the ultimate CX leader? What do you think?

Shelly:
That's absolutely right. I mean, you know, I've been reading a book called Flip the Script by Oren Klaff, and it's it's really about how to get other people to think that your idea is their idea. So if you can get good at just showing and this is in his book, but if you can really get good at demonstrating what you're expert at and be the best at that, then you can build on to that with some of the other skills that maybe aren't strengths for you, but you can use people to support you on those things and you know you can lead in the way that is best for your strength set.

Pat:
Yeah. Are there roles? I mean, there's so many roles within a company that have something to do with the customer. Now, I think sometimes when we think of CX leaders, we think of someone that is leading CX or they're on the CX team. But there's a number of other roles that we might say are kind of unexpectedly CX. Do you see some of those roles out there as well that people might be interested in but not really think about as CX?

Shelly:
Unexpectedly CX. I like that. Certainly the contact center is is natively CX and it's a pet peeve of, I think a lot of people in the industry that the world out there thinks that those two things, CX and CS are the same thing. But yeah, unexpectedly CX, you know, I think that based on my experience now at Delaware North, I see my brand counterparts, I see my marketing counterparts are, are, are native thinkers when it comes to customer experience. So it's not something that they necessarily see as a separate discipline. And that's something that I'm working to build out at Delaware North. But I think that just natively, it's it's within their skill set and their mindset to bring thinking of the customer first into focus.

Pat:
Mm hmm. You know, I think it's kind of interesting. You know, some of the people I've talked to, they start out in one of those roles and then kind of discover, hey, there's a whole department here that that's all they're focused on is customer experience. And it becomes kind of a revelation. And I think that's how so many people end up in this profession, don't you think?

Shelly:
You know, I do think that's the case. And not a lot of companies have design departments unless they have a heavy digital focus. So that's certainly very, very related. But I've been working with a lot of people in I.T. and in engineering product development, and there's a lot of customer experience thinking there. So what's really exciting is when you can get all those people together working cross-functionally to bring a great customer experience to life. That's when it's just so fulfilling. And one of the my favorite things to do.

Pat:
Right, and I think that's an important piece of it. I think sometimes we think a little narrowly about the customer experience is about measuring experience and understanding the customer and where they're at. But there's so much more that's on the what I call the proactive side where we're saying, well, what's the experience we want to design for our customers? And that that is a key part of the profession.

Shelly:
Right.

Pat:
You know, as people advance in their career in CX there are a number of certifications out there that's common in any industry and that's certainly developed in CX. What do you think about those certifications and what advice do you give if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I'm looking at one of these certifications, is that something I should consider?

Shelly:
I agree that certifications are really important in the world out there today. And, you know, it just gives people a sense that you've seen as much of customer experience as you're going to need to do the job. I love that the CCXP from the CXPA is very comprehensive. It covers their six disciplines and I think that's hugely important. I have asked my last two staffs at my last two companies if they would be certified in CC… to be CCXPs. You know, Forrester has a certification. I'm Forrester member. I'm not opposed to that. It looks pretty comprehensive. I like their program. I guess the thing that I, I don't think is as valuable is certifications from various providers because they tend to be a little bit more slanted, a little bit more focused on the thing that the provider is good at and is doing. So I think the CCXP is probably my preferred certification out there.

Pat:
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think from the association that is just by nature and impartial kind of group and full disclosure, we're both certified, so we obviously see some value in it and would be biased in our opinion about it. But I can say, you know, for the people I've talked to that have wanted advice, you know, there's certainly nothing wrong with it. There's no downside other than you kind of got to study a little bit and get ready for it. Would you agree there is some work involved, right?

Shelly:
Oh, yeah. It's it's not a cakewalk. It might not be the type that you have to study for six months for, but you really have to be working in it for a while, which is a requirement. So sometimes people like to add credentials next to their name. And if that's what they're into, that's great. But you can't you can't kind of study your way through it completely. You have to both live it and study for it.

Pat:
Right. And I think long term, if somebody is looking at a career, it is one of those things that more and more companies, when they are hiring as a professional, you know, that's going to give them an advantage. They… They're becoming more and more familiar with that that designation. And that at least tells somebody they've got some experience.

Shelly:
You know, one thing I'd love to see them add to the CCXP is just some business basics, because that is so fundamental and so important for CX leaders, especially, and even higher level people within their organizations to understand what makes the business tick. So a little bit of the MBA stuff, at least a familiarity with some of the basics of what runs the business. You know, what are the numbers mean in a business? How do you get connected to business objectives? How do you draw a line from CX results to to revenue growth, acquisition, all those things? And I think that's an area where we are probably weak as a profession. And when you have to learn on the job, it's it's tough. Yeah.

Pat:
You know, I think you bring up a good point because I know that in most organizations, you know, we're not, you know, gathering all these insights and everything just for just to do that. We're trying to relate it to how can we improve the business? And in delivering that information, we're often in front of business leaders, right. And we have to think of their perspective and what what are they going to gain from what I have to tell them. And if it's…

Shelly:
That's where they live.

Pat:
Yes, if it's a bunch of research stats, you know, the old saying is, so what?

Shelly:
Right. Yeah. And the so what for them just lies in what's the impact to their top goals. And one of the first things you can do is the customer experience professional is is fight to get a customer goal in one of your top objectives for the company. And oftentimes it's not surprisingly, but if if that can be put into place in a way that the board and the C-suite understands how to achieve those goals, then that's really good. I don't want to say insurance. It's just really good foundation for your program going forward.

Pat:
Yeah, I think that's great advice. Now, you know, just along that those lines, there are a number of pitfalls in in CX as well. Is there advice or cautions that you would provide to somebody that is really seeking to go down the CX path?

Shelly:
There are so many there are so many pitfalls. You know, after a career on this, you've probably hit them all. I've hit them all. I think a couple of pitfalls would be. Understand that people don't know what your profession is and they don't understand how you're going to be working with other people. So communicate, communicate, make it about change management as much as you can. The change management that you do is probably the most important thing you will do outside of the day to day, gathering insights and acting on them and those types of things. So it's constantly, especially in this remote world, right? And this, you know, this this world of Zoom is just make sure you're reaching out to people that they really understand beyond your emails and your IM's, what's going on and what, what your intentions are and where you want to go.

Pat:
Today we're talking to Shelly Chandler. She's an experienced and certified professional with Delaware North. We're having a great discussion about careers and CX. So, you know, Shelly, you shared a story before we went on the air about when you interviewed for one of your positions. And I thought it was interesting how you had a bit of a line of questioning to really understand the company's commitment. Do you mind telling that story?

Shelly:
Yeah. They always say that in interviews it's a two way thing. And, you know, at this level, I took that very seriously and knew that if they wanted me to come in and run customer experience for the company, I needed to know what their true intentions were and how deep that went. So I did press them quite a bit on what's what's the I always call it the runway. What's the runway for? CX where do you see it going? Is it funded? Is it not? Is it something that all of the members of the C-suite believe in, or are there any skeptics who would be my biggest challengers on this? And I kept kind of pushing until I had knocked down every wall that I'd encountered in the past and felt like, well, if what they're saying makes sense, if if it's at least 50% right, then I'll be in a good place. It turned out to be a very good place. But you do have to ask those questions to know what you're getting into.

Pat:
Yeah, I think that's so important because as ambitious as me, we may want to be, we've got to have the right environment within the company. Right?

Shelly:
And I even feel that I feel like if you if you're not finding that your company is willing to really do more than pay lip service to customer experience, if if they're just looking for maybe it's an NPS number or they're just looking for something simple that doesn't have meaning throughout the company and doesn't really change the experience, then, you know, it might just be better to leave. And in this environment you can do that. I know I'm trying to hire five customer experience people, so I'm going to use this as my pitch. But it's very hard to it's very hard to stay in a situation where the company isn't fully supporting what you're doing and it's just cannot not be worth it.

Pat:
Yeah. So, okay, so advice to people that are going to be interviewing with you as they should ask you the tough questions.

Shelly:
That's right. Well, and tough questions.

Pat:
And part of that story was, isn't that what really helped get you the position that that they said you you really pressured them?

Shelly:
Yes. The the C-suite people that I met with, some of the presidents of the divisions, they said at first they said, well, gee, you don't know about hospitality. Our business and I had never worked in it before, but they knew that the questions I asked them were important and that that's where they needed to go. So that's why they felt that I was the best choice worked out.

Pat:
So for those that are in CX and they want to continue to develop their skills, you know, what are some of the the ways you would recommend that they kind of take on that personal development and continue to build those skills that are necessary to be really effective?

Shelly:
I think one of the biggest areas of CX, and it has to be by its nature, is you have to start collecting insights. So if you're in customer feedback management, VOC, whatever you want to call it, you need to go beyond thinking about just the insights and delivering a report thud on the desk. You know, you need to always make recommendations. In fact, you need to champion your recommendations. And that will see that will help people to see that you're about more than just the data, but you're helping them to connect those dots between what we know versus what we can do about it. I think that's a big one. And I, I may have mentioned earlier that just getting comfortable with data and understanding today's tech stack when it comes to data, very helpful. So perhaps you're in data analytics and you want to know more about customer analytics. That's a that's an easy shift, but you might not want to go into the data space into the world of data lakes and all types of technology that need to work very closely with CX. So that's a natural. And I also think in, in I.T there there's a lot of connectivity and crossover when it comes to managing all these various data sources and making them work. So there are lots of adjacent areas that you can work in, not to mention the classics like marketing and product management.

Pat:
Right. Right. And you know, you've mentioned to just the importance of being able to translate those insights and and make those recommendations and be comfortable in getting in front of executives or teams or different departments to really talk about, here's the action that is necessary to create the change, to make for a better experience.

Shelly:
And the way that becomes most powerful is if you can also link that to business objectives. So it shows that you can take this data and help the people who commissioned it to understand what they're supposed to do with it. So it's positioned you as more than just an info gatherer.

Pat:
Yeah. And I know we've both benefited from being involved in some of the organizations and such where you can interact with other CX leaders. Because I do think this can be it can turn into a profession where you feel like you're on your own island, you know, because sometimes you you have influence, but you don't have a lot of control in many cases. And so just being able to network with other professionals. I think you've benefited from that, haven't you?

Shelly:
Absolutely. That is that's been one of the the joys of my career. I think, in fact, I have just lifelong friends from just sitting down with someone at a table at a conference and saying, what do you think about that and how are you using that? I think any of the conferences like the CXPA or Forrester or any of those that are out there, you should use to the max degree. And it's not it's not networking for the sake of finding another job. That's sometimes what what your manager might think. But it's more about networking to ask people if they're encountering the same challenges that you are. And even just knowing that there are others out there doing what you're doing and facing the same steep hill is so helpful.

Pat:
Yeah. Well, Shelly, we have come to that time in the show where we ask our guests for their best tip. We call that the take home value. One piece of advice that our listeners can put to use right away. So, Shelly Chandler, what take home value would you like to leave with our listeners today?

Shelly:
Outside of telling your children to become data analysts, I would say find your own data project to get involved in. Look around. It might be a Six Sigma project. It might be something having to do with continuous improvement, or it might just be that you need to get to know your partners in the data group. Start a data group if you don't have one, but be that person who really connects customer experience with financial, behavioral, operational data all together. That's how you'll have the greatest impact.

Pat:
It's great advice. Shelly Chandler is the head of customer experience for Delaware North, one of the largest privately held hospitality and food service companies in the world. Shelly, thank you for being on The CX Leader Podcast today.

Shelly:
It was a joy. Thank you.

Pat:
And if people would like to keep in touch with you or shoot a question to you, what's the best way?

Shelly:
On LinkedIn is probably the best way for me. Thank you.

Pat:
All right. So you're out there on LinkedIn. People can reach you there. And if you want to talk about anything you heard on this podcast or how Walker can help your business and their customer experience program, feel free to email me at podcast@walkerinfo.com. Be sure to check out our website cxleaderpodcast.com to subscribe to the show and find all our previous episodes, our podcast series and contact information so you can let us know how we're doing. The CX Leader Podcast is a production of Walker. We're an experience management firm that helps companies accelerate their XM success. You can read more about us at walkerinfo.com. Thank you for listening today, and remember, it's a great time to be a CX leader. We'll see you next time.

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