The CX Leader Podcast: "This Data or That Data?": Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

The CX Leader Podcast: "This Data or That Data?": this wav audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Steve:
The world gathers a lot of data every day. I mean, a lot of data. But when it comes to customer data, it's not how much you can collect, but what data you should gather.

Azlan:
We need to think about how will we delivering more personal experiences rather than thinking about personalization. I think the data is the core component to be able to do that, but you need to think about what's the right data and moving away from the whole idea of next best offer and selling something to what's the next best experience that the consumer actually wants to have?

Steve:
Collecting the right data from your customers on this episode of The CX Leader Podcast.

Announcer:
The CX Leader Podcast with Steve Walker is produced by Walker, an experience management firm that helps our clients accelerate their XM success. You can find out more at walkerinfo.com.

Steve:
Hello, everyone. I'm Steve Walker, host of the CX Leader Podcast and thank you for listening. Like we say, it's never been a better time to be a CX leader. And this podcast explores topics and themes to help leaders like you leverage all the benefits of customer experience and help your customers and prospects want to do more business with you. 2.5 quintillion bytes. That is the number 25, followed by 17 zeros. Write that out on a piece of paper if you really want to blow your mind. That's how much data is generated by the world each day. A staggering amount of data and customer experience pros are part of that number. We rely on data to help us understand our customers needs, but what data should we be collecting and how does a leader determine what information is meaningful and what is simply noise? Well, I'm really proud to have my guest on the program this week. Azlan Raj is the CMO for the EMEA part of Merkle, a CX management consulting company. He's a thought leader, has a new book out and he joins us today based in London. So it's always nice to talk to our friends across the… Across the pond as we like to say so. Az, thanks for being on the program and welcome.

Azlan:
Thanks, Steve. I'm excited to be here, so I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Steve:
Well, I just getting to know you a little bit offline and I knew of you and I've heard of Merkle. And obviously you guys are kind of in the same space as us, but it's always interesting to kind of hear how people arrived on their journey to be a CX pro and a CX leader. So just for those of listeners that maybe don't know you well, just give us a little bit of your background and how you got to where you're at today and what you've been doing.

Azlan:
Yeah, by all means, so I've been in the digital industry, I'll say in marketing as a whole, but predominantly in the digital industry for for just over 20 years. My whole career has been a bit of a mix between client side, agency side and consulting. And so I've had the pleasure of seeing all the different sides of what happens and the challenges that we see from a consumer perspective, how customers interact, how agencies and brands start to work together to try and solve some of these problems. And I've worked for sort of big brands directly, and I've worked with some of the largest brands in the world, just even working through Merkle as well. So Merkle, as you say, is my current role, it is the CXM company where we specialize in in leveraging data, technology, experience and crafting those experiences together for our clients. So currently I am the CMO across EMEA, so I look after our own activity, think about our positioning and what what is coming next within the industry and what do we need to look for. But prior to that, so I joined in 2016, but before this role I was actually looking after our customer experience practice and delivering experiences for clients across the region. So that that practice now is obviously run by somebody else, but it's about 1500 people building a crafting experiences for our clients and some of the biggest brands. And then as I said before, prior to that, I was in a mix of agency and consultancy roles as well for some of the biggest agencies globally and one of the largest consultancies in the world, too.

Steve:
And you've got a new book out.

Azlan:
I have, indeed. Thanks for reminding me. Yes. So yeah, we as part of that actually we it came about. So I co-wrote a book called Shift: Transforming Motion into Progress, which was released on the 27th of January this year, actually was in March for the US because we had slightly different release dates. But just through the experiences that we've had with clients, my colleague Rich Lees and I were constantly talking about some of the friction that you see within organizations when they're trying to transform their business and deliver new experiences for customers or even evolve their existing experiences. There's sometimes that that inertia that happens in an organization is how do you start to overcome that so that you can overcome the barriers and the challenges to make sure that you can deliver the experience that's expected.

Steve:
And yeah, we'll come back and talk a little more about your book and when we wrap up. But again, I just wanted to set a little context and congratulations on the book. I know it's a big that's a big effort. Hey, well, I'm really excited to talk about the topic at hand. You know, when I think about my own journey in this space, we come out a little more from the heavy duty market research side. But, you know, surveys are just one piece of the puzzle today. And when I try to describe to my friends kind of, you know, all the data sources that we touch and get into in working with CX pros, it really is. It's become very much a technology space. It's really driven. So let's let's simplify it a little bit and come back to just kind of what what is the purpose of collecting data? We got a lot of it, but what are we trying to do with it? What's the end game.

Azlan:
I think you alluded to in your intro? To be honest, Steve, I think it's really about understanding the customer and helping helping meet those customer needs. And more importantly now expectations, because we've been talking a lot in the in the industry about we're now in an expectation economy, which is is driving, I guess, a need across the industry to be much more personal. I mean, just to give you an example, if you think back 15 to 20 years in the way that we used to buy a car, we would walk into a showroom or a dealership, we have a conversation with the sales rep. We'd we build a rapport or they would build a rapport with us in the aim to try and sell us a car. We may or may not walk out with a car, but if you transfer that into today's world with all the different digital touchpoints and the way that we start to interact with all the different digital and social channels that we've got available to us, it we've, we've created personalization to use data, but we've commoditized that data for the purpose of selling. So consumers are now becoming just more desensitized to that selling process, and they're expecting that personal experience that you'd get in the dealership. But in today's world, in that digital economy or that digital environment that we've got today, so we need to think about how are we delivering more personal experiences rather than thinking about personalization. I think the data is the core component to be able to do that, but you need to to think about what's the right data and moving away from the whole idea of next best offer and selling something to what's the next best experience that the consumer actually wants to have.

Steve:
Yeah, I like this concept of the expectation economy. That's something we've always talked about is that the customers expectations are really where we where we start from. If we meet or exceed them, we're probably okay. And if we fall short, we're probably not. So that's sort of a truth that endures no matter what we do. But what kind of should be at the front of your mind when you start designing what kind of data you're going to collect for your customer? How would you start if you're starting from scratch?

Azlan:
I think the first thing is actually the expectations you just mentioned. The fact that you need to meet and exceed is is a really good point because, you know, there's almost a challenge right now for for organizations. And are they just a product and service business or are they now an expectation business? And if they are, we've got to start thinking more about the outcome or the end outcome for the consumer and what that potentially means. What are we trying to achieve? What's the value of that data for the consumer? And then think about how do we prioritize based on customer value and not just business value. So I think we've because if you just think back what I said about personalization just now, the fact that we've commoditized to sell means that we're doing it for the business, which is meant that it's actually had a had a negative… negative might be a strong word, but a negative effect to the end consumer. And that's why some of these regulations have really start to come into play that sort of restrict the amount or the type of marketing that we can potentially do now. So I think we've got to be really mindful about the way that we're asking for it and thinking about that value exchange of data.

Steve:
Yeah. So you come at this way more from the digital side I'm gathering now than kind of us in the market research track, but you know, so you're talking about the like privacy laws in European Union and…

Azlan:
I am, yeah. And it does it does apply across all channels any marketing as a whole. So it could be digital or offline. Obviously policies are a big one, but any of those become become more restrictive as as we're going through.

Steve:
Yeah. And I think most of our pros are familiar with that, especially if they have any sort of global footprint. But you know, even in the states, we have different states are are more aggressive and then regulated industries, health care, financial services have some of their own restrictions. So, you know, the privacy issue is is a big thing. I just I kind of always emphasize from our standpoint, I mean, our intent is to help marketers deliver value to customers. And the more regulated and restricted it gets, in some ways, it limits that ability. Right? We think airlines, for example, you know, that it's so driven by regulation that that the experience is pretty it's pretty generic.

Azlan:
I agree. It's funny, because I was just speaking to somebody just now about about the travel experience because it hasn't really changed over the years. As you say, it's so heavily regulated that the experience hasn't improved, but also because of what we've been through, there has been time. So there are adjustments that could have been made around that, that particular industry as well. Yeah, it's a very interesting.

Steve:
Yeah, you know, this has always been kind of a hot topic of mine because I think the intentions are right, you know, to protect consumers. But, you know, also the ability to innovate. Like with COVID, we've seen some relaxation in the restrictions around medical information, which has really increased like telehealth and some of the things that we weren't able to do pre-COVID. Now that we can do and it really kind of took that to to move that needle. And so it's a very complex ecosystem. But I guess just from the profession, I think it's right for us to be well intentioned and also advocating for the customer and and understanding our ethical responsibility there too, so. But as long as we're really trying to do things in the spirit of trying to help marketers and help customers get better experiences, it should be OK. As I say, I do go off on tangents, but that's why it's my podcast. Sorry, Az. Hey, let's come back to the topic at hand and talk a little bit more about some of the common pitfalls or traps or what do you see out there? Where do people go wrong kind of in their data efforts in this big data era?

Azlan:
I think it's it comes down to the collection of data and we sort of touched upon it just now, the whole trust component with these regulations coming in and even with things like the demise of the cookie, you see a lot of businesses focusing on on the question around how do we get more first party data, whatever channel that is, whether that's through direct response, whether it is through digital means, how do we get more of it? Yeah…

Steve:
Even back to surveys or…

Azlan:
Exactly.

Steve:
…recorded customer service calls, so.

Azlan:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That and we we often get the question from from different clients. You know, we've got X number of customer records. Is that enough? And the first question is, is that enough for what? What's what's the intent, what's the purpose, what are you trying to achieve? And most importantly, what's valuable to the customer? And I think just going back to the original question, but the biggest pitfall is trying to collect too much data because that degrades the trust, it degrades the need and the value because I think not all data is equal or data has different value points as well. So I think we need to find a way to be more authentic and more realistic in the type of data that we collect and prioritize it accordingly.

Steve:
Hey, my guest on the podcast this week is Azlan Raj. He is the CMO of Merkle, a CX consulting company, globally based and part of the big Dentsu organization. And having a fascinating conversation about big data and how companies need to think about the data that they're collecting on their customer experience. Az, I'm kind of fascinated by your perspective on this, because one of the things I've seen in my career is, you know, we we didn't used to talk about the digital part of the experience 20 years ago because there really wasn't one. So what differences are there either by industry or by what you're trying to accomplish? How do you kind of segment data collection in and talk to a customer or one of your clients in terms of what they're trying to attract?

Azlan:
So I think from a data collection process, we tend to have three buckets. If I was to simplify it down, the first one is almost like static data, which is data that doesn't really change over time. So things like date of birth, name, address. And then you've got transactional data, which is things like product history. And then the third one is contextual, which is more behavioral. It's in the moment, such as a search term, for example. And if you think about static data as a whole, a lot of businesses sort of focus in that space. But the amount of value that you can provide to a consumer with that data other than maybe an email on my birthday or post code based audience, which is actually more beneficial to the business, is pretty limited in what you can do with that type of data with regards to changing an experience or fueling an experience or even potentially the insight depending on on how you look at it. That's not I think if you ignore segmentation, for example. Yeah, but a lot of the value comes from contextual data because it's so it's… It's about what a consumer is doing at a given moment in time. So if you combine contextual data with other data sets as well, I think that's probably where the greatest value is. The thing with contextual data is that organizations need to be set up to be able to leverage that data because the value diminishes very quickly. Because if I do a search term online and I'm typing in for something in half an hour, that's search terms probably irrelevant because I'm searching for something else at that point. So you've got to be able to capitalize on that and deliver something that that I want to see at that moment in time as I'm asking for it. I mean, there is a chance I come back, but…

Steve:
Yeah, and this really is this is the phenomena today. Like if we're searching for a term and then we flip over to Facebook or LinkedIn and then we get an ad back or we were searching for a piece of clothing and then we go again. So I think it creeps people out a little bit, but it's also just shows you how convenient and how really we're just really one click away from what we want to. It's kind of spoiled us.

Azlan:
And it sort of touches upon that value exchange we mentioned just now because as you say, when you see your images of products that you've that you viewed previously, follow you around the Internet, that's where the creepiness comes and sometimes lack of value because in some cases you might have already purchased it.

Steve:
Yep.

Azlan:
But if we can get that right to be the right value exchange again and thinking about something that's really relevant and useful for the customer, then it changes the dynamic of that conversation.

Steve:
I love your three buckets, sort of the static, the transactional. And did you call the last one relationship?

Azlan:
Contextual.

Steve:
Yeah, I think that's a great concept for our listeners to to jot those down if they haven't already. But and you made a couple references to sort of the customer value versus the business value. Unpack that a little bit more. How do how do you define that?

Azlan:
Yeah, I think the I mean, the business value normally comes down to profitability must be this is shareholder value and understanding how they generate revenue and profit for the organization. So what businesses can tend to do is look at efficiency and effectiveness when they're going through data. And it it can often mean that we tend to look at audiences, we look at segmentation, we start to think about ways that we can be more efficient with the data, using the data that we've got to target people that are going to buy. If you flip that on its head, the consumer isn't obviously caring about whether they buy something from you. They're caring whether it's the right product, whether it's the right service. Do they need it right now? And there's more of a balance between the the emotive and the science. And just thinking about the context of what's important for them, I think starts to change because I think going back to expectations, they have an expectation and meeting those expectations will ultimately have business value. That's the the purpose of a customer experience is that is to meet the needs of that end consumer. So if we can start to position customer value on what they're trying to do or trying to achieve over just trying to think about selling that it starts to change the conversation. It will naturally sell in a more organic way.

Steve:
Yeah, you know, actually, that's, that's really the job of the CX pro, right, is to link those two things together because…

Azlan:
Absolutley.

Steve:
…you know, we need to be an advocate for our customers, but we can't do that exclusively without regard for the performance of of our business. If you think about it, one, the customer value drives the financial performance of the organization because if it doesn't, if you're not meeting needs, it won't last very long and won't validate financially. So you got this Rubik's Cube analogy. I'm dying to hear it.

Azlan:
We did. We we call it the fluid cube. And it sort of builds upon the point around moving from delivering personalization to being more personal. And it's about leveraging data effectively to get towards that next best experience. But the Rubik's Cube or the fluid cube, as we call it, sort of represents a consumer. And if you think about how you mix a Rubik's Cube together and the combinations of permutations of how those rotations happen can represent the state of the consumer at any given moment in time, because there are so many different factors to how a consumer feels, how a consumer thinks, the experience that they've had on the website before, the experience that they're having on your website right now or the channel that they're on, it varies. And there are so many different factors to to what can make a person do take a particular action. So the idea around is just really thinking about some of the axes that might represent on that cube. So there are three different parts that we look at. So the first one is we call fluid personas. It's the fact that personas independently no longer exist because people can sit in multiple personas or they may move between personas now. So the traditional way of looking at personas is much more advanced than it used to be.

Azlan:
And so to give you an example, I used to play ice hockey very badly, but I used to play ice hockey. My son plays ice hockey as well. And if I'm shopping for equipment, if I'm looking for for my son, I'll look for things that are a safety first and they're going to protect him on the ice. However, if I'm looking for me, I'm looking for the glossy, shiny kit that's going to make me look good when I'm standing on the bench. Very different outcomes, but it's still me that's buying them. It's just that I'm shifting between personas as a dad versus as a player. So that's the principle that sits behind it and understanding those things become very important. The second axis is the the concept of a fluid journeys and the fact that you can have multiple journeys with an organization at once. So a good example for this would be maybe buying a car. Or if I was to visit a car website, how would that manufacturer know if I'm coming to get my existing car service or if I'm looking to buy a second car or a third car for me or for somebody else in the family? There has to be certain triggers that the organization understands, because when you haven't got that 1 to 1 interaction, you can't just necessarily ask that question.

Azlan:
You might be able to on a survey or in some shape or form, but in some cases you can't. So you need to find ways to to understand what the proxies are around those. And the final one is, is fluid expectations. And that's really around what is the state of mind of the customer or the state of happiness, making decisions based on that customer state. So if you know that a customer is unhappy, don't try and sell them something. Give them a better journey or experience that's going to give them something that will help alleviate that pain and really take into account the urgency of of a request versus the emotional intensity of a request and what of how that can affect what you deliver to them. You know, what are the things that we've discussed in the past here is just just thinking about the if you break down on the side of a road, that your emotional intensity and the urgency for you is very high. So you can't put somebody on hold on a phone call for 30 minutes. You know, that's got to sort of take priority. How do you factor those sort of concepts in?

Steve:
It's great. As you were talking, I drew a little cube on my notes here and put the three axis on it. I mean, we I think a lot of consultants were were pretty good with two axis matrices. But doing the three, then you get to the cube and you're right. You know, there's not just really two components. There's at least three, maybe more. So hey, and I love the ice hockey reference, getting that in there as the Stanley Cup playoffs just began in the over here in North America this this week, I'm a hockey fan myself. I grew up in Indiana, so I didn't play much hockey, but I went to college in Boston and where it's you know, it's it's big time.

Azlan:
So so you're a Bruins fan?

Steve:
I am a Bruins fan. They're down 0-2, so…

Azlan:
So I'm at Leafs fan. So we probably got a bit of conflict here now, Steve.

Steve:
Well, actually, I'm kind of a Leafs fan too. You know, they I, you know, I really hope I live long enough to see him win the cup again. I think they're 1-1 after last night, right?

Azlan:
They are, yeah.

Steve:
Yeah. So well, let's take the fluid cube and the Rubik's Cube analogy and talk about how a company might might act on that. So you can use whatever example you wanted there. But how would you start to action that as it relates to how you're drawing your data in?

Azlan:
Yeah. So I think there are probably multiple ways that we could look at this, but I think the first one is just thinking about that principle that I said about the combinations of permutations. So with the Rubik's Cube, there are a number of different options that you can use. But in reality when you have a Rubik's Cube, it's a set of algorithms and it's a set of sort of systems in place that you can solve for through pattern recognition, which doesn't happen in the human form. So if you start to compare against actually some other games like chess, for example, in chess after the first two moves, there are 400 different options that you can take, which becomes a little bit closer to the human side of driving experience. But actually there's a I don't know if you know, but there's a Chinese strategy game called Go. After two moves there's two and a half thousand, sorry. After two moves, it's two and a half thousand different options that you can have to to move. It becomes exponentially.

Steve:
Eight times more complicated than chess.

Azlan:
Yes, it's.

Steve:
Chess is plenty complicated for me.

Azlan:
Absolutely. And actually, one of the chapters in the book is called The Queen's Gambit. The reason I brought that up is because organizations need multiple strategies to be able to to organize around this, because we tend to have one big strategy, whether that's one big data strategy, one big experience strategy or transformation strategy. But thinking about how do you break those down and start to prioritize those strategies based on value again? And I think that's the key component that we that we're trying to focus on here. And when it comes from data, what's the data that you're going to prioritize? What data do you need to centralize? And how is that data going to be used in your end? Experience that you're trying to achieve is the key component. What are your strategies to be able to get you there?

Steve:
Nice. Az we've reached that point of the podcast where I ask all of our guests to give their best tip. Now this can be a restatement of something you've already talked about or something that's new. But basically we're trying to give our listeners something that they can go and take back and apply to their own program and improve it next week or tomorrow or next month. So, Az, give us your take home value, man.

Azlan:
Okay. So I think for me it's really about making sure you've got a clear view on the experience of the outcome you're trying to achieve and then identify the gaps across the integrations or the capabilities that you need internally. So whether that's technology, whether that's data, then starting to think about prioritizing. And just to the point from earlier, don't try and boil the ocean, make sure there is much more agile in the way that you do it. Test it out. Make sure that it's there, because by the time you implement it, if you take too long, it may no longer be a differentiator for you.

Steve:
Great. Well, hey, thanks again for being a guest on the podcast. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Azlan:
Thanks for having me, Steve.

Steve:
Hey. And if anybody wants to continue the conversation or get your book, make sure you let us know, hear how they can get in touch with you, or even more important, how they can find your book.

Azlan:
Yeah, absolutely. So you can find it on Amazon or Target in the US as well or any major retail bookstore. Or you can go to motionintoprogress.com.

Steve:
Okay. And are you on LinkedIn?

Azlan:
I am on LinkedIn.

Steve:
So yeah, they can find you on LinkedIn as well. And if you'd like to continue the conversation, I highly encourage it. Very thoughtful and neat experience today. So thanks again for being a guest on the podcast.

Azlan:
Thanks, Steve.

Steve:
Hey, and if you want to talk about anything else you heard on this podcast or about how Walker can help your business's customer experience, feel free to email me at podcast@walkerinfo.com. Be sure to check out our website cxleaderpodcast.com to subscribe to the show, find all of our previous episodes, podcast series and contact information. You can let us know how we're doing or suggest an idea for a future podcast. The CX Leader Podcast is a production of Walker. We're an experienced management firm that helps companies accelerate their XM success. You can read more about us at walkerinfo.com. Thank you for listening. And remember, it's a great time to be a CX leader. So go out there and do your best. We'll see you again next time. Thank you.

Sonix is the world’s most advanced automated transcription, translation, and subtitling platform. Fast, accurate, and affordable.

Automatically convert your wav files to text (txt file), Microsoft Word (docx file), and SubRip Subtitle (srt file) in minutes.

Sonix has many features that you’d love including automated subtitles, enterprise-grade admin tools, transcribe multiple languages, automated transcription, and easily transcribe your Zoom meetings. Try Sonix for free today.